Wednesday, February 21, 2024

UDLCO : "If humans had not hallucinated" social media DJ driven citations and appraisal

2/16, 8:19 AM] Jaspreet Bindra : If humans had not 'hallucinated', would we have some of our most important discoveries and creations?

German chemist Friedrich Kekulé  discovered the molecular structure of benzene when he was ‘hallucinating’ about a snake biting its own tail. Mendeleev reportedly had a ‘vision’ of the periodic table, Edison claimed to mine his dreams for material. Writer Stephen King claimed to have dreamt up his novel "Misery" during a somnolent transatlantic flight, and the masterpieces of Van Gogh and Salvodar Dali were often inspired by the hallucinations inside their heads.

So, are we looking at LLMs (Large Language Models) hallucinating the wrong way? 

What if we thought of them as a feature, and not a bug, and take its help to make astonishing discoveries like the aforementioned gentlemen?  


[2/21, 8:56 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Cited @⁨~Jaspreet Bindra⁩ in a social media DJ driven UDLCO happening today in the AI healthcare India group :

[2/21, 6:49 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Yes in this case our hypothesis is that this could be non AI generated content masquareding as AI



[2/21, 8:16 AM] Vijayasimha Ajarananda: Ha, ha. Hallucinating human's beware, your digital twin will be ASH karoing (Artificially synthesised hallucination).


[2/21, 8:23 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Our biological human networks are sufficient for positive hallucinations reinforcing creativity. 

There's an interesting piece written and shared by Jaspreet Bindra about how AI LLM hallucinations are a booster to their creative potential likening it to Kekule's discovery of the benzene ring which was a hallucinationary dream (aren't all dreams that?)! 

Salvador Dali was known to encash on them for his biological LLM products that sold for zillions!


[2/21, 8:24 AM] Vijayasimha Ajarananda: What most of us refer to as stupidity,?



[2/21, 8:28 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Absolutely! 

Learning to ask stupid questions is the first step to creativity!



[2/21, 8:39 AM] Vijayasimha Ajarananda: Loved the moment Alpha Go check-mated the human expert with some "crazy irrational and  inhuman" moves confusing the human and making him lose the game.


[2/21, 8:39 AM] Vijayasimha Ajarananda: https://youtu.be/WXuK6gekU1Y?si=Pyp3BrqWCT-iaEQ5


[2/21, 8:53 AM] Ravi Kiran Bhaskar: I specifically excel at that, still skeptical if I am past the first step 😂

[2/21, 9:20 AM] Prof Asoke Talukdar: Is curiosity based research not about asking stupid (?) questions? 😊


[2/21, 9:24 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Perhaps it's not just the first step but an integral component of many more steps that are arranged like a circle. One has to keep returning to the "stupid" step from time to time!


[2/21, 9:26 AM] Ravi Kiran Bhaskar: Local minima in all its glory 😀


[2/21, 9:28 AM] Khushi : Asking 'stupid (?)’ questions is like using a GPS – it helps you navigate the unknown.
It is essential for the learning.

[2/21, 9:29 AM] Rakesh Biswas: That looks like the Duning Kruger curve. It needs a little bit of a modification! Especially when we reach the plateau we don't know it but actually doubt it. 

Also the curve is possibly more complex and intertwined again with the initial maximas and minimas!

[2/21, 9:31 AM] Ravi Kiran Bhaskar: Yup an overly simplistic version for the uninitiated naïveté like me 😃

[2/21, 9:32 AM] Rakesh Biswas: You've really plateaued well 😂


[2/21, 9:45 AM] Prof Asoke Talukdar : Phases of learning:
1) Unconscious Incompetence
2) Conscious Incompetence
3) Conscious Competence
4) Unconscious Competence


[2/21, 9:47 AM] Rakesh Biswas: When we are conscious of our incompetence we could be parallely unconscious about our competence @⁨Ravi Kiran Bhaskar⁩



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Sunday, February 18, 2024

Ongoing product development crowdsourced project: Hemodialyser jugadoo toothbrush with microlumen fluidic bristles

Project goal : Product development by repurposing hemodialyser filters into toothbrushes with microfluidic cleaning and flossing potential 


Problem statement in a serendipitous ideation context :




The idea appeared while our Dental post graduate colleague was onto scaling spring cleaning my teeth when I asked what exactly does that equipment do to which she replied it just sends a jet of water that spring cleans to which I suddenly thought why can't we use our hemodialyser fibers to create a tooth brush with bristles where water flows through each bristle! I then showed her and her Professor how our hemodialyser fibers looked like. It was unbelievable that the hair like fibers actually had a lumen although I was demonstrating and teaching this to my students for decades, so we further took out the fibers and examined them under a microscope and yes they did have a lumen! 




Our nearest novel tooth cleaning competitor (although our idea is completely different) is in the link below and there are many more most of them cost a bomb:


Project challenges and expected evolution:

Let's first layout the (not challenging) issues :

Finances : Aha here's the real jugadoo part. A single hemodialyser currently  costs around 1000/- max (more https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/iit-b-breakthrough-may-cut-dialysis-cost-by-half/articleshow/45225103.cms)
and one can generate 100 jugadoo tooth brushes from the bristles inside a single hemodialyser filter, so roughly 10/- per tooth brush would be the cost price till it evolves. 




Off course before that one needs to figure out the most important part about how to deliver the fluid into each bristle with a microscopic lumen! 

Current design challenges and review of literature requirements :

Water pump for the microfluidic tooth brush : 

A naive view : That simple plastic water gun in holi for each brush would do?! 

Understanding Microfluidics: 

The thorniest technical piece of the puzzle in the question below for which we are crowdsourcing this project :

The fluidic header of the clustered brush bristles:

How does the plasma and RBC enter the microscopically hollow dialyzer capillaries made of polymers? 




Pasting this question itself in google  will reveal a few papers that I have summarized below :

Here's a "paper that summarizes various theoretical approaches describing the transport of fluid and solutes in artificial membranes, bridging physics and biophysics in order to collect different parts of the puzzle and bring light to the complex mechanism of membrane transport. It is aimed at both specialists (dialysis researchers, doctors working in the field of dialysis and blood purification, students of biomedical and life sciences) as well as wider audience with interest in physical processes in biological and polymer membranes: 


Again not helpful from the teeth cleaning perspective so perhaps you can hop skip jump through reading the above paper! 

Now here's a potentially helpful paper linked full text below if when you can get to the part where they talk about efforts to, "develop a microfluidic device that was an interface point between dialyzer miniaturization and an OOC device" although here's where you may feel a pang to switch your jugadoo toothbrush project from making a microfluidic toothbrush to making human organs and their capillaries, essentially walking and talking wet microfluidic Android simulations of biological humans but remember the tooth brush has better monetizing value, just think of the entire population of this world waking up in the morning to use your microfluidic toothbrush with a water gun at a throwaway price that can make you the next trillionaire! You can always use that money to fund your other projects then?  

The one below for the first time comes to answering our question although we are still far from the technical translation of it into a tooth brush (but we got closer):

"DIALYZER HEADER

The dialyzer header is the space between the cap of the external polypropylene casing and the potting compound which holds the capillary fiber bundle and forms a barrier between the blood and dialysate compartments. The composition of the potting compound varies between manufacturers but generally contains polyurethane (polyol and multifunctional isocyanates). To allow blood to flow through the hollow capillary fibers, the ends of the potted bundle are cut, ideally leaving a smooth surface to reduce the risk of subsequent clotting within the header."

Unquote : https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/sdi.13161

The above is also the header for our potential jugadoo fluidic toothbrush and while we were happy with the 10/- cost price for the micro lumen fluidic bristles, the header is going to add to the costs once we can figure out how best to design the same top in the toothbrush!  



There's another interesting problem statement in the above article :

 "...single use of dialyzers and dialysis equipment can have environmental impact as dialyzers cannot currently be recycled and require land fill disposal." 

Hey our jugadoo toothbrushes are going to help reduce environmental impact by our recycling them as tooth brushes! 

Technical challenges to reuse :

Again quoting from the same article above:

"After the dialysis session, dialyzers are rinsed to remove all blood, although this process is generally automated, it can be done manually."

"Then, the dialyzer is filled with a germicide, usually now peracetic acid rather than formaldehyde, or a combination of hydrogen peroxide, peracetic acid, and acetic acid (Renalin® 100), labeled and stored."

Invitation to crowdsourcing ideas in the whatsapp group linked below  to figure out how to create that fluidic header for the toothbrush top :

https://chat.whatsapp.com/JMz5aZCu3Yy5s1FP08bx8k

Please ask anyone you know who can share their technical inputs to jump in.  

Fluidic toothbrush project UDLCO

[2/18, 10:12 PM] Rakesh Biswas: This is an experiment in trying to see if industry academia crowdsourcing is possible to develop a jugadoo idea to it's natural conclusion! 

More here :


If interested and if you know anyone else who could be interested and may have some tech ideas to offer please use the project group invite link below to brainstorm further:



[2/18, 10:21 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: 'Fluidic header design' in this article-it serves as a model.But have to evaluate safety..

Can we consider 3d printing or injection molding techniques?


And also,microfluidic design where water flows through every bristle and can fit into toothpaste head-gotta look for any materials..


[2/18, 10:38 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Most of the materials are already in the 1000/- Rs hemodialyser. It just needs to be repurposed although repurposing the head is the real challenge that will need some tech design thinking


[2/18, 11:03 PM] Sumit Global CBBLE: I've studied about water floss before

[2/18, 11:03 PM] Sumit Global CBBLE: but this is new


[2/18, 11:35 PM] Avinash BMJ Elective: 1200 INR 



[2/18, 11:44 PM] Avinash BMJ Elective: Better than normal brushing technique or better than best considered modified bass technique?

Better than gargling/kulli?

About sonic brushes- SonicTeeth works so well because it uses ultrasonic technology. SonicTeeth vibrates at 5,000 times per minute, which moves the toothpaste between the teeth and along the gum line for a deep cleaning that isn’t too rough on the teeth. 


This ultrasonic vibration is another tech where some cost will be involved, along with Microlumen for water flow with pressure control.

My guess is the bristles may not be micro lumen (10 to the power -6, but much wider and only having a little pressure in the water jet, not enough to target plaque/food stuck in corners but only enough to have water pressure similar as kulli/gargle)

All these not a detailed research. Just sharing thoughts and trying to find any useful info.

[2/18, 11:46 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Shall we have to replace the dialyzer to only toothbrush?

Can it be repurposed to anything else which has a brush?

Like say cleaning equipment etc?

[2/18, 11:49 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Or say water filter?

[2/18, 11:49 PM] Avinash BMJ Elective: Many things possible, clinically useful and marketable may be better.

[2/18, 11:50 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Repurposing hemodialyser filters into water filtration systems can provide an affordable and effective solution for households or communities lacking access to clean water. Here are some DIY steps to repurpose hemodialyser filters into a basic water filtration system:

### Materials Needed:
1. Hemodialyser filters (unused or expired)
2. Plastic or glass containers (for holding filtered water)
3. Activated carbon or charcoal
4. Sand
5. Gravel or small rocks
6. Cotton or fabric (optional, for additional filtration)

### DIY Steps:

#### 1. Prepare the Hemodialyser Filters:
- Obtain unused or expired hemodialyser filters from medical facilities or suppliers. Ensure that the filters are clean and free from contaminants.

#### 2. Design the Filtration System:
- Select a plastic or glass container to serve as the main filtration unit. The container should be large enough to accommodate the hemodialyser filters and filtration media.

#### 3. Construct the Filtration Layers:
- Layer the bottom of the container with small rocks or gravel to act as a coarse filter.
- Place a layer of sand on top of the gravel to further filter out larger particles and sediments.
- Add a layer of activated carbon or charcoal to absorb impurities, odors, and chemicals present in the water.
- Optionally, insert a layer of cotton or fabric on top of the activated carbon to provide additional filtration.

#### 4. Install the Hemodialyser Filters:
- Carefully cut open the hemodialyser filters to access the hollow capillary fibers inside.
- Arrange the fibers vertically or horizontally within the container, ensuring even distribution and maximum surface area exposure.

#### 5. Assemble the Filtration System:
- Secure the hemodialyser filters in place within the container to prevent movement or displacement during filtration.
- Seal any gaps or openings around the edges of the container to maintain a tight seal and prevent bypassing of unfiltered water.

#### 6. Test the Filtration System:
- Pour contaminated water into the top of the filtration system and observe the flow of filtered water into the collection container below.
- Monitor the quality and clarity of the filtered water to assess the effectiveness of the filtration system.

#### 7. Maintenance and Replacement:
- Regularly clean and maintain the filtration system by rinsing the components with clean water and replacing the filtration media as needed.
- Monitor the condition of the hemodialyser filters and replace them periodically to ensure optimal filtration performance.

### Safety Precautions:
- Handle hemodialyser filters and filtration media with care to avoid injury or contamination.
- Use clean and sterile equipment when assembling the filtration system to prevent bacterial or microbial growth.
- Test the filtered water for quality and safety before consumption or use.

By following these DIY steps, individuals or communities can repurpose hemodialyser filters into cost-effective water filtration systems, providing access to clean and safe drinking water for areas facing water scarcity or contamination issues.

[2/18, 11:50 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: 👆🏻AI


[2/18, 11:50 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Certainly! Repurposing hemodialyser filters into other products or devices can explore various applications beyond toothbrushes. Here are a few potential ideas:

1. **Water Filtration Systems**: Hemodialyser filters can be repurposed to create affordable water filtration systems for households or communities without access to clean water. The filters can help remove impurities, contaminants, and pathogens, improving water quality and promoting public health.

2. **Medical Devices**: Hemodialyser filters may find applications in the development of medical devices for blood purification, drug delivery systems, or tissue engineering. These filters can be integrated into innovative solutions for treating kidney disease, managing drug dosages, or regenerating damaged tissues.

3. **Biomedical Research Tools**: Researchers can utilize hemodialyser filters as components in laboratory equipment or experimental setups for studying fluid dynamics, membrane transport phenomena, or cell culture systems. These filters offer a versatile platform for conducting research in various fields of biomedical science and engineering.

4. **Environmental Remediation Technologies**: Hemodialyser filters can be adapted for environmental remediation purposes, such as wastewater treatment, air purification, or soil remediation. The filters can help remove pollutants, toxins, and contaminants from different environmental matrices, contributing to sustainability and ecosystem health.

5. **Educational Demonstrations**: Hemodialyser filters can serve as educational tools for teaching concepts in biology, chemistry, physics, and engineering. Schools, colleges, and educational institutions can use these filters to demonstrate principles of filtration, osmosis, diffusion, and material science in hands-on learning experiences.

Exploring diverse applications for repurposing hemodialyser filters can unlock new opportunities for innovation, sustainability, and social impact across various industries and fields of study. Collaboration among researchers, engineers, educators, and community stakeholders can drive the development of practical solutions that address pressing challenges and improve quality of life.


[2/19, 8:18 AM] Rakesh Biswas: I guess this LLM hasn't gotten the toothbrush idea yet although we may have just given it that! 😅

[2/19, 12:40 AM] Avinash BMJ Elective: If not marketable but DIY then also better


[2/19, 12:41 AM] Avinash BMJ Elective: Biohackers have started doing proper clinical trials of DIY things in covid


[2/18, 11:01 PM] Sumit Global CBBLE: cool idea

[2/18, 11:02 PM] Sumit Global CBBLE: why do we need a fluidic header though

[2/18, 11:02 PM] Sumit Global CBBLE: is it better than normal bristles

[2/18, 11:03 PM] Sumit Global CBBLE: (because i have no idea)


[2/19, 8:17 AM] Rakesh Biswas: This is a question that can be better answered once we have the proposed prototype ready! 

The current step is to overcome the challenge of understanding how to get to the apparently simple technology that lies in the dialyzer head and design the tooth brush head unless we want to make it a totally jugadoo project where we simply break the dialyser header and retain it's corresponding bristles along with the part connected to the top blood delivery system system without trying to understand how that works! It would produce just one toothbrush for one hemodialyser but only then would it become a true jugadoo project where we may be able to get discarded hemodialysers at throwaway prices! 

Prof @⁨Sundar Swaminathan⁩ is here who's currently chairing the Nephrology department in IISc Bangalore along with his adjunct chair in Mayo Clinic, Arizona and I guess many of you may have also seen the flyer where he's set to deliver an oration in PGI Chandigarh on his experiences in Nephrology over few decades. He may have some technical inputs on the hemodialyser design that can be dissected toward this project.




[2/19, 9:02 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Feedback from a Prof of transfusion medicine from US and currently teaching in AIIMS : 

[2/18, 11:23 PM]: The Dental cleaning, dishwasher and car wash all supplement the water jets with scrubbing actions to dislodge material which is stuck too tight.. Water jet is one of the great tools.. but the bundled multiple nearly parallel jets is a novelty point,, which neither of the above 3 has.. why not divide them into two nonparallel or rather convergent subsets with alternating flow so that the mechanical dislodging can be done without having to move the ensemble too fast

[2/18, 11:29 PM]: Alternating convergent jets can give side by side nudge and dislodge things possibly better than a scrubber


[2/19, 10:19 AM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Good inputs.

Will take a dialyser filter and check how we can repurpose it.


In a day or 2


[2/20, 4:18 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Can you share the packaging pic of this dialyser


[2/20, 4:20 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Had a discussion with @⁨Dr Bansal⁩ who is a patent specialist and he wanted to understand the mechanism of the proposed tooth brush. 

We also have @⁨Satheesh Cfhe IIT⁩ who had visited us during his IIT Hyderabad clinical immersion program and he would also like to share his inputs toward further design of this product which is currently stuck at how we may replace the dialyzer header and convert it into a tooth brush header

2/20, 4:19 PM] Avinash BMJ Elective: Seems enough force for toothbrush..


[2/20, 4:20 PM] Avinash BMJ Elective: Also the tap water seems to be at low pressure. So more also possible.


[2/20, 4:21 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Yes considering that we are thinking of using a toy water gun canister for every individual tooth brush!


[2/20, 4:24 PM] Rakesh Biswas: The hemodialyser header repurposing for the toothbrush challenge


[2/20, 4:26 PM] Avinash BMJ Elective: may 3d print toothbrush head with a handle (like replaceable once available in market), 

With a whole in head and handle.

then 20-30 bristles to be pushed into holes poked into head and packed with something like glue gun.


This way we may get a prototype.


Alternatively may use a metal tube, poke some holes, push bristles in many holes packed with glue gun and connect a water tube for flow but this prototype idea is more primitive than 3d printed head+handle


[2/20, 4:26 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Imagine the toothbrush header here in a much more miniature toothbrush size. We need to crack this design where the water/plasma/RBC is actually flowing inside the lumen of each of these bristles although to the naked eye that is never visible


[2/20, 4:27 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: That looks like it can be tried to be repurposed into tissue engineering scaffolds..

I mean,hollow and porous


[2/20, 4:29 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Microfluidics refers to a system that manipulates a small amount of fluids (10−9 to 10−18 liters) using small channels with sizes ten to hundreds micrometres. It is a multidisciplinary field that involves molecular analysis, molecular biology, and microelectronics.[1] It has practical applications in the design of systems that process low volumes of fluids to achieve multiplexing, automation, and high-throughput screening. Microfluidics emerged in the beginning of the 1980s and is used in the development of inkjet printheads, DNA chips, lab-on-a-chip technology, micro-propulsion, and micro-thermal technologies.





[2/20, 4:30 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Take a look a the close up of the head and think of it as the tooth brush head. How would we ensure that what currently happens in that brown chamber directing all the fluid into the individual microfluidic lumens would also happen inside a similar toothbrush head that we may design? It's more of a physics problem? @⁨Satheesh Cfhe IIT⁩ any IIT physics or fluidics engineering guys who can help with this design?


[2/20, 4:30 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Few applications which maybe explored in IVF as well


[2/20, 4:31 PM] Avinash BMJ Elective: I think it depends on alignment/adjustment of the narrow tubes.

If any pressed/clogged/folded then it may be jammed but may not be noticeable unless many tubes having such issue.


[2/20, 4:31 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Yes most dental scaling/cleaning machines work with the same principle and this would be the major competitor for our fluidic toothbrush


[2/20, 4:32 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Exactly. We need to find some literature on how the hemodialyser fibers are aligned at the header


[2/20, 4:33 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: First we may have to design /understand the fluid channel in this dialyser head,and then maybe run some simulations..and experiment on prototype(dye tracing and velocimetry maybe)


[2/20, 4:33 PM] Rakesh Biswas: They are currently instrumental in the development of next generation artificial wearable kidneys


[2/20, 4:34 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Yepp..in cell culture bioreactors too

[2/20, 4:35 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: @⁨Avinash BMJ Elective⁩ let's review any literature on patent on this dialyser head..

That may explain us more about the fluid channel in this head

[2/20, 4:35 PM] Rakesh Biswas: It's this one :





[2/20, 4:43 PM] Avinash BMJ Elective: I am failing to understand two aspects

1) are we hopeful about any specific usability (usability/cost improvement) or we are exploring that.

2) if we are not filtering anything (nano pores in tubes along its surface are) and only pushing water through 200 μm wide tube's lumen then why we may need to consider microfluidics aspects? (For our understanding or anything related to usability?)

[2/20, 4:46 PM] Rakesh Biswas: 1) We are trying to overcome the header design that once cracked will lead us to the usability 

2) Yes it's fluidic design. Not microfluidics, which doesn't need to be pursued


[2/20, 4:46 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: 1.Exploring that(apart from toothbrush-which is cost effective but have to solve the issue of header)

2 .Dialyser head is already microfluidic,as we don't know how it makes a better toothbrush,I'm trying to explore other stuffs where it can be repurposed

[2/20, 4:48 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Is the head fluidic or microfluidic?

[2/20, 4:48 PM] Avinash BMJ Elective: Thanks for inputs, @⁨Rakesh Biswas⁩ sir and @⁨Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015⁩ 

Helped me to get on same page.
[2/20, 4:49 PM] Avinash BMJ Elective: Along the length it's fluidic (200um lumen approx)

Along the wall (surface area) it's microfluidic as there are pores- doing fliteration.

[2/20, 5:04 PM] Avinash BMJ Elective: In glue gun put some fibers,  and make a plug with it and push it in a straw and see flow.

[2/20, 5:12 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Would you like to try it by breaking one of the disposed and thrown away dialysers (after you disinfect it as mentioned in the last review of literature link in the project page) from any of the dialysis centers near your locality? 

The other option is to buy this one at 720/-


[2/20, 5:37 PM] Satheesh Cfhe IIT: Hi iam satheesh fellow ICMR, Fellow centre for health care entrepreneurship IIT Hyderabad, iam also an entrepreneur based out of Hyderabad



Think of the hemodialyser as the giant tooth brush


[2/21, 10:07 PM] Prof Oral Medicine: Doesnt appeal to me😳


[2/21, 10:08 PM] Rakesh Biswas: The novelty is there's water flowing through the lumen of each bristle


[2/21, 10:08 PM] Prof Oral Medicine: Aah


[2/21, 10:09 PM] Prof Oral Medicine: If water flows continously… the paste will get washed off too soon?


[2/21, 10:15 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Good point!


[2/21, 10:15 PM] Rakesh Biswas: This tooth brush was more to mimic scaling!


2/21, 10:21 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Also the water will come intermittently from a canister with each tooth brush similar to a toy water gun


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UDLCO: Generalist v specialist education in academia industry partnership toward societal requirements

UDLCO (conversational learning summary by one human  observer acknowledging that an LLM could perhaps be less biased) :


The conversation here meanders around different ways and styles of learning primarily in a focused specialized programmatic  manner vs in a discovery 
based exploratory all encompassing way that not just builds multidisciplinary expertise but also builds bridges across those disciplinary islands. Is  academia responsible for providing employable students or is academia an instrument of socio technical problem solving? 
How should academia generate students who have mastered the fundamentals and are self directed life long learners committed to societal impact and how would academia identify and nurture them and their discovered non traditional pathways are a few take away questions that still linger long after one has scrolled through the conversations below. 


Conversational transcripts:

(2/15, 4:27 AM) K: Another thought bubble! 

Why should engineering colleges offer all streams of engineering ? 

Why cant we have a specialised institutions? 

College
Of civil and infrastructure education 

College of Mechanical Sciences

College of Electrical and Electronics Engineering 

College of computational engineering 

Just one single stream. These will be so specialised, the infrastructure, faculty,
Subject matter expertise, all will be top class.


[2/15, 7:31 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Is there no cross fertilization of ideas in the current cluster based engineering schools? Would specialized standalone engineering schools each for civil, mechanical, CS etc make for lesser ideation and further cognitive stunting? 

Just a counter view that I would be glad to lose


[2/15, 7:31 AM] Dr Ravi Nayar : Wasn't it Vivekananda who said , we in India have a surfeit of leaders , not enough of people who serve..?


[2/15, 7:36 AM] N R: It's not the era of specialisation... From an industry point of view we need more generalists who can pick up new skills quickly.

Specialisation makes sense in medical field.  But an Engineer has to be open for learning new skills in today's world.  Vast number of Engineering output are into IT anyway, wasting their specialist skills in one branch


[2/15, 7:46 AM] J S : a number of points -  clearly we are the nexus of some dramatic change - we will need specialist and we will need generalists in all fields  - especially medicine - unfortunately the pendulum swings too far in a direction - if youi have unfortunately visited a hospital - each specialist (cardio, gastro, neuro) detail out their scope and passes the baton the next.. unfortunately the customer (er.. patient) is left to put the pieces together and make sense of this all - Internal medicine /GP used to be there to help make sense of these diverse datasets and be on the patience side to guide and advocate and even push back on specialists... so hard to say u need only one or the other.. 
-similarly in engineering - we need both - 
on that note - just a good podcast to listen to is on e by MArc and Ben the Andreesson guys) - on the crisis in education -- it is very US focussed, but enlightening as the issues seem very foundational - and the sad part is other parts of the world are still modelling themselves after the US systems..


[2/15, 8:10 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Why would specialization make sense in the medical field alone? 

The human body is a trillion celled ecosystem evolved to have cells that do cater to different organ requirements around which current organ based specialities such as cardiology, Gastroenterology, Nephrology, neurology etc are created and yet all these organs keep communicating with each other through molecular signalling mechanisms. 

Perhaps we can learn more from the trillion celled ecosystem that each one of us carries around with us all the time?

Here's more about generalism in education and practice :



[2/15, 8:16 AM] N R: Because of trilions of cells ... 😄

It will probably take few generations to understand all the cells in human body and how they interact with eachother... With specialisation it might be possible to focus and get somewhere with a few million cells 😀

2/15, 8:34 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Very important point :

Was also earlier trying to respond pivoting on this as to what are the possible basic similarities and differences between engineering and medical education :

Similarities are what @⁨Dr Ravi Nayar puts it as: 

Both are meant more for service than obsessive marketing and selling 

Differences are :

Engineering deals with quantitative approaches to quantifiable knowns  although when it comes to an offering solutions bottomline, there are instances where engineers too can provide working solutions where the machine works although one may not exactly understand how. Case in point: hemodialysers were removing a lot of toxins that were not  completeley characterized even as dialysis machines evolved and yet we knew they were being removed beneficially for the patient! 

Medicine otoh especially at the patient interface (coalface of healthcare) largely deals with qualitative approaches to unmeasurable unknowns and uses a lot of art and humanities tools that are seldom shared formally in education and research!


[2/15, 8:38 AM] Rakesh Biswas: So what should be the first step to provide true multidisciplinary education with societal impact? 

A good place to start would be a peripatetic school (etymological derivative of Sanskrit parivrajak) where disciplinary experts (Rishis) move with their peripatetic gurukul in search of real problems to solve toward real impact! 

Above was just a neutral thought lest we start tagging it with left right connotations


[2/15, 8:18 AM] Rakesh Biswas: To build better generalists in Medicine a complete game change of the curriculum that moves away from a single organ driven to a whole patient centered curriculum where the focus is not just on internal medicine and it's trillion celled internal cellular molecular crosstalks but due consideration to external Medicine with heightened abilities to understand with precision, the complete biopsychosocial requirements of individual patients. 

More about game changing education curriculum here :



[2/15, 8:32 AM] J S : I was thinking about it too. But, do we run the curriculum in a multi disciplinary way? The streams are compartmentalised inside the campus. Thats all. 

We are long way to implement a true multidisciplinary approach. 

Unless we make the education “applied” rather than “knowledge”, we can’t call multi disciplinary.

[2/15, 8:38 AM] Rakesh Biswas: So what should be the first step to provide true multidisciplinary education with societal impact? 

A good place to start would be a peripatetic school (etymological derivative of Sanskrit parivrajak) where disciplinary experts (Rishis) move with their peripatetic gurukul in search of real problems to solve toward real impact! 

Above was just a neutral thought lest we start tagging it with left right connotations

[2/15, 8:41 AM] K : My thoughts are like this. 

Applied and fundamental 

If we need applied engineering, then multi disciplinary institutions are the way to go 

But, if we need to encourage fundamental research, then, a specialised, super focused institution may be the right approach. 

More discussion and expert PoV are required to validate my hypothesis.


[2/15, 8:46 AM] G N: Education has to teach the fundamentals Skills follow if the conceptual foundation is robust.


[2/15, 8:53 AM] U B : That will be driven by the industry partly. Employers need to change their mindset. As an example, I know some colleges are offering Engineering with History as an elective. Potential employers need to understand this and hire them


[2/15, 8:58 AM] G N: Thats standard practice overseas. A mentee of mine at Stanford majored in Computer Science and had two minors - Comparative Literature and Salsa Dancing.

[2/15, 9:00 AM] N R : Its crazy that people from around the whole world think modern education is broken.... At least we are not alone

[2/15, 9:06 AM] G N : The problem is that industry wants to blame academia for all its ills


[2/15, 9:08 AM] U B : Academia is also to blame partly. They are not in synch with the industry. That's why we have a employability problem. Only now with the NEP getting enforced there will be a transformation, seeing early signs of that,

[2/15, 9:23 AM] A Ki : Enforcing is exactly the problem. Modern education does not need regulators like AICTE / UGC or govt to decide which institute is ranked better (NIRF). This restrains innovation. Set the institutes free and let them innovate and let the market decide. IITB only has 175 odd seats for CompScience. Why not 2000 with 1000 being higher fees.



[2/15, 9:09 AM] K : Is employability is the only goal of academia 🤔


[2/15, 9:12 AM] Atul Batra NPC: agree blame games (and only overly negative narratives) are feel good perhaps but don't help anyone. It doesn't change things. What is needed is ideas and action. And deep collaboration between industry and academia, which someone well summarized as "just not talking to each other (exceptions notwithstanding)". The entire charter of this community. This community was not setup to just vent out at each other which is very easy to do; but but to exchange ideas, to have conversations, and build long term relationships that will germinate into action over time.


[2/15, 9:12 AM] U B  : That's why I said partly!


[2/15, 9:14 AM] U B : You may want to read through the NEP policy I had posted earlier. You will understand how much transformation is required.

[2/15, 9:19 AM] K : 💯 On a Thursday morning, a working day, the kind of conversations happening here are amazing💐

This group has reached a critical mass and tipping point 👏👏👏

[2/15, 9:09 AM] K : Is employability is the only goal of academia 🤔


[2/15, 9:22 AM] N R : Mostly yes.

I mean we have massive industries in place for which we need to keep producing resources to keep 'em running




[2/15, 9:27 AM] K : Good point. But….

On the other hand, we will have think about 100s of other smaller / private institutions. 

Given a chance, they will happily keep the status quo’s and running their cash cows. 

The frameworks, measures and metrics by AICTE and UGC at least pushes them and keep a reasonable standard. 

And there are autonomous colleges and deemed universities that have autonomy to make certain academic changes as required.


[2/15, 9:33 AM] Atul Batra NPC: Can we kickstart the concept of a community scribe? We can also use AI tools but it will help to have someone polish it up after. So every week, one person, by rotation, takes 20 minutes to parse through the discussion and summarize it back for group. Many of us can publish to the world etc. It can be anonymous so we will not call out names etc. High level summary w/ key takeaways. Who can start as the first community scribe?


[2/15, 9:41 AM] Rakesh Biswas: I often do some DJ mixing with different group texts forwarded to different groups to see different tunes emerge and also archive them as UDLCO on the lines of Baker expanding kolbs work on experiential conversational learning. 

Here's what I got today from other health 2.0 groups. Too early to say how much music v noise it adds👇


[2/15, 8:47 AM] Rakesh Biswas: UDLCO thought for the day from NPC industry academia group : competency v learning style :

[2/14, 11:45 PM] Prof Ram : Too many good points and I am not competent to respond to all.  But just one general point - there cannot be one type of education system that suits all.  So, we need many types.   
There is also no correlation between number of students who go to college and the overall per capita GDP.
Only 12% of high school graduates go to get a degree in Netherlands. Their workforce is very skilled because a much larger percentage go to vocational training and get absorbed. 
Similar things in Finland, Germany, etc..  But their labor forces are highly skilled.  
In the USA this is about 43%.
In India depending on where you get the numbers from it is anywhere between 8% to 27.3%.     To me therefore the Indian challenge is not numbers, but (i) quality, (ii) lack of good vocational training for the rest and (iii) a society that values theoretical knowledge more than practical skills.   
The changes need to be cultural as much as policy.

[2/15, 8:43 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Yes learning styles are important and often confused for competency and it's bedfellow that is just the opposite. 

We need to rename competency based education as "learning style based education"



[2/15, 9:18 AM] Kandada Srinivasa : We have to wait till another generation. The current parental generation are a combination of aspirations to achieve highest caste, white collar jobs, top positions, and get away from the birth based forced trade crafts which do not or rather did not allow them to move around if they have other aspirations.  Once it is saturated at the top all over the world only then the raising Indians will look back and take a more pragmatic view course correction towards vocational courses and skill development


[2/15, 9:19 AM] Ravi Vangara: There Is a need for industry, institution and individual to get a view of industry demand, that modified the courses or individual learns skills.. this way every one benefits a lot. This is the equation that needs to be solved.

[2/15, 9:42 AM] Atul Batra NPC: thanks. A nice crisp summary would be very useful as ritual here on I/A community. Also, minus names.


[2/15, 9:45 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Some anonymized indicator will need to be used to differentiate the originators of each text. 

Suggestions around this welcome! 

Not sure how would human 1 or human 2 look like. Perhaps something else?



2/15, 9:38 AM] R v B : In the midst of our fast-paced world, diving into STEM education feels essential, especially here in India. 

If we aim to keep our edge in science and tech, sparking that innovative spirit early on is key. It's disheartening that many entering the workforce lack basic STEM know-how, and the fact that there's a noticeable absence of women and various ethnic groups in crucial STEM fields is a red flag. 

We really need to invest in diverse STEM role models to build a more inclusive innovation landscape. 

We will have to nurture a culture of curiosity and problem-solving – that's how we together may drive India forward in the science and tech game.

[2/15, 9:42 AM] R v B : Some of the questions coming to mind:

1. How can we incentivize higher education institutions to implement necessary change toward these goals, including adopting practices we know work?

2. How can technology be used as a pedagogical tool and be a democratizing force?

3. What non-traditional pathways are students taking to acquire skills, competencies, and credentials? 

4. ⁠How do these new pathways challenge higher education as we know it?

5. How do people best learn STEM concepts at different life stages?

6. ⁠How do different contexts, including where people live, affect learning? 

7. ⁠And how do we optimize content delivery to improve outcomes?


[2/15, 9:54 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Question 3 appears pivotal to answer the other questions! 

My students I realize are from a generation facing information overload while I may have come from a generation of information poverty when walking to different libraries in the city and browsing books standing there, gave some daily exercise which I'm still thankful for. 

This generation have their eyes on the sensory pleasures as the outcome of their efforts (we were no exception) and currently they know how to optimize their information handling toward learning what the curriculum demands toward ensuring a degree that guarantees life long supply of power and sensory pleasures (again true of all generations). 

There are exceptions to the above rule and I guess a summary of all the discussion above is that we need their tribe to increase. 

Those who have mastered the fundamentals and are self directed life long learners committed to societal impact. 

How do we identify and nurture them and their discovered non traditional pathways?





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Sunday, February 11, 2024

PaJR Telugu, Bengali and English guidelines for sharing daily energy inputs and outputs

First in Telugu (scroll to the bottom for Bengali and English) :

మీరు మీ రోగి యొక్క రోజువారీ గంట కార్యకలాపాలను దిగువ స్లాట్ చేయబడిన పద్ధతిలో పంచుకోగలరా? 👇


08.02.2024 నవీకరించబడింది

8.30 AM - మేల్కొనే సమయం

8.30-9 AM - ఫ్రెషప్

9.30 AM - అల్పాహారం (6 వడ + చట్నీ)+ ఒక కప్పు కాఫీ

10 AM - 1 PM - క్లయింట్ కాల్స్

1.45 PM- మధ్యాహ్న భోజనం (3 కప్పుల అన్నం + చికెన్ కర్రీ సుమారు 300gm)

2.15-5.30 PM - క్లయింట్ పని కొనసాగుతుంది

6 PM - 2 మఫిన్లు + ఒక కప్పు టీ

6. PM- 9PM- సిస్టమ్‌లో క్లయింట్ పని

9.30 PM - రాత్రి భోజనం (2 కప్పుల అన్నం + చికెన్ కర్రీ సుమారు 200gm)

గమనిక- దిగువ ఎడమవైపు నొప్పి రోజంతా ముఖ్యమైనది. అతను తరచుగా విరామాలలో వేడి నీటి సంచితో స్థానిక హీట్ అప్లికేషన్ చేయడానికి ప్రయత్నించాడు. ఈ రోజు ఉదయం నిద్ర లేవగానే కొంచెం బెటర్ అని చెప్పాడు, బహుశా నిన్న హీట్ అప్లికేషన్ వల్ల కావచ్చు.

Mīru mī rōgi yokka rōjuvārī gaṇṭa kāryakalāpālanu diguva slāṭ cēyabaḍina pad'dhatilō pan̄cukōgalarā? 👇

08.02.2024 Navīkarin̄cabaḍindi

8.30 AM - mēlkonē samayaṁ

8.30-9 AM - phreṣap

9.30 AM - alpāhāraṁ (6 vaḍa + caṭnī)+ oka kappu kāphī

10 AM - 1 PM - klayiṇṭ kāls

1.45 PM- madhyāhna bhōjanaṁ (3 kappula annaṁ + ciken karrī sumāru 300gm)

2.15-5.30 PM - klayiṇṭ pani konasāgutundi

6 PM - 2 maphinlu + oka kappu ṭī

6. PM- 9PM- sisṭam‌lō klayiṇṭ pani

9.30 PM - rātri bhōjanaṁ (2 kappula annaṁ + ciken karrī sumāru 200gm)

gamanika- diguva eḍamavaipu noppi rōjantā mukhyamainadi. Atanu taracugā virāmālalō vēḍi nīṭi san̄citō sthānika hīṭ aplikēṣan cēyaḍāniki prayatnin̄cāḍu. Ī rōju udayaṁ nidra lēvagānē kon̄ceṁ beṭar ani ceppāḍu, bahuśā ninna hīṭ aplikēṣan valla kāvaccu.

আপনি কি আপনার রোগীর প্রতিদিনের ঘন্টার ক্রিয়াকলাপগুলি নীচের স্লটের মতো করে ভাগ করতে পারেন? 👇 



08.02.2024 আপডেট 


8.30 AM - ঘুম থেকে ওঠার সময় 


8.30-9 AM - ফ্রেশআপ 


9.30 AM - প্রাতঃরাশ (6 ভাদা + চাটনি) + এক কাপ কফি 

10 AM - 1 PM - ক্লায়েন্ট কল 


1.45 PM- দুপুরের খাবার (3 কাপ ভাত + চিকেন কারি প্রায় 300 গ্রাম) 



2.15-5.30 PM - ক্লায়েন্টের কাজ চলতে থাকে 


6 PM - 2 মাফিন + এক কাপ চা


 6. PM- 9PM- সিস্টেমে ক্লায়েন্টের কাজ 


9.30 PM - রাতের খাবার (2 কাপ ভাত + চিকেন কারি প্রায় 200 গ্রাম)



 দ্রষ্টব্য- নীচের বাম দিকে ব্যথা সারা দিন উল্লেখযোগ্য ছিল। তিনি ঘন ঘন বিরতিতে একটি গরম জলের ব্যাগ দিয়ে স্থানীয় তাপ প্রয়োগ করার চেষ্টা করেছিলেন। আজ সকালে ঘুম থেকে ওঠার পর সে বলে একটু ভালো হয়েছে, হয়তো গতকাল তাপ প্রয়োগের কারণে।

UDLCO summary: Description of how team based learning around low backache keeping the patient's requirements at the center can eventually be beneficial toward improving backache patient outcomes 

Patient advocate's initiation to the PaJR team based patient centred learning group:


[11/07, 17:16] Genau PaJR CEO CFHE IIT: Please kindly start posting current symptoms

[11/07, 19:24] Patient Advocate 55f Backache Telangana: She is suffering from back pain and legs pain

[11/07, 19:25] Patient Advocate 55f Backache Telangana: Feels high back pain while getting from bed

[11/07, 19:26] Patient Advocate 55f Backache Telangana: Sometimes feels pain in shoulder and neck

[11/07, 19:27] Patient Advocate 55f Backache Telangana: Pains during folding of legs

[11/07, 19:27] Genau PaJR CEO CFHE IIT: Describe how she feels in the morning immediately after getting up from bed 

Please kindly describe her daily routine from getting up in the morning hour by hour

[11/07, 21:11] PaJR PHR moderator:

 Since when?

[11/07, 21:53] Patient Advocate 55f Backache Telangana: For last seven years


[12/07, 08:08] PaJR PHR moderator: 

Can you share her hourly daily routine before seven years when she was presumably living a normal life?

Let me share some examples in links below to demonstrate the structure of information, slotted into hourly slots we would need to proceed further in our evaluation 👇


Example 1 normalcy illustrated in another patient who doesn't have backache:

6.30 am : woke up and got prepared for morning Walk 

7.30 am : came home and went to bath 

8.00 am : students came of class 9 & class 7 and studied, drank cow milk with Protinex 

9.15 am : had lunch with rice, dal , mixed sabji and omlet curry 

9.30 am : did some household work 

10.00 am : went to school 

2.00 pm : returned home and slept 

3.30 pm : ate ruti , 1 spoon jaggery with milk and slept again

5.00 pm : woke up, students came and studied 

7.30 pm : went for tuition to teach drank milk tea without sugar and 2 biscuits 

8.45 pm : went for rehearsal of drama.

10.00 pm : came home and had dinner, rice , fish , dal , sabji 

10.15 pm : did some work 

11.30 pm : slept

More about this patient here:


Another backache patient's hourly activities:

8.00 AM - wakeup time

8-8.30 AM - freshup

9.00 AM - breakfast (2 idly + 2 vada + chutney)+ one cup tea



9.30 - 1 PM - client work on system

2 PM- lunch ( chicken biryani approximately 300 grams)

2.45-4.30 PM - sleeping

4.45-5.30 PM - went out on a casual walk of approximately 1.5 km

5.45 PM - 2 muffins + one cup coffee

6. PM- 9 PM - system work

9.20 PM - dinner (chicken biryani approximately 200 gm)


Note- the pain he had in the lower back on the left side area seems to have returned and is bothering in the same way like it did a week ago . Faces pain / discomfort in that area on deep breath and also when stretching body.

More about the above backache patient here:

https://himajav.blogspot.com/2024/02/30m-weightloss.html

More about daily hourly sharing of energy inputs and outputs here:








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