Summary
This ProJR is to compare various PaJR patient diet plates with a particular focus on vegetarian protein vs animal protein consumption outcomes in terms of overall muscle mass and adiposity along with metabolic syn outcomes.
The initial ProJR build up conversation explores how herbivores, like cows and Indian bison, obtain amino acids and build muscle proteins from plant-based foods. Microbial fermentation in their gut breaks down complex carbohydrates into simpler sugars, producing energy and amino acids. The animals use these amino acids to synthesize their own proteins.
*Key words*
Herbivores, microbial fermentation, complex carbohydrates, amino acids, protein synthesis, nitrogen metabolism, ruminant gut, ammonia, nitrates
Previous links to accumulated PaJR records showcasing vegetable vs animal protein:
Vegetable protein:
South Indian
North Indian
Animal and vegetable protein diets:
North Indian:
East Indian:
South Indian:
Vegetarian dietary protein sources ProJR: The biochemistry of vegetarianism and building adequate muscle protein
[04/01, 15:08]hu1: How are complex carbohydrates such as grass from plants eaten by animals that are purely vegetarian to build their own complex muscle proteins?
[04/01, 15:08] Meta AI: Awesome question! π€
Herbivores, like cows and goats, have a unique digestive system that allows them to break down complex carbohydrates in plant-based foods, like grass, into simpler sugars. This process involves:
1. *Microbial fermentation*: Their gut is home to a diverse community of microbes, like bacteria and protozoa, that produce enzymes to break down cellulose, hemicellulose, and other complex carbohydrates in plant cell walls.
2. *Cellulose breakdown*: These microbes convert cellulose into simpler sugars, like glucose, which are then absorbed by the animal's body.
3. *Amino acid synthesis*: The absorbed sugars are used to produce energy, and the animal's body uses this energy to synthesize amino acids, the building blocks of proteins.
4. *Protein synthesis*: The amino acids are then used to build complex muscle proteins, like actin and myosin, which are essential for muscle growth and maintenance.
In addition, herbivores often have a specialized gut anatomy, like a ruminant stomach (e.g., cows) or a hindgut (e.g., horses), that allows for efficient microbial fermentation and nutrient absorption.
So, in short, herbivores rely on their gut microbes to break down complex carbohydrates, and then use the resulting energy and amino acids to build their own complex muscle proteins! π±πͺ
Would you like to know more about the fascinating world of herbivore digestion? π
[04/01, 15:09]hu2: Where do they get their amino acids from?
[04/01, 15:09] Meta AI: π Great follow-up question!
Herbivores obtain amino acids from two main sources:
1. *Microbial synthesis*: The microbes in their gut, like bacteria and protozoa, synthesize amino acids as a byproduct of fermentation. These microbes use nitrogen sources, like urea, ammonia, or dietary nitrogen, to produce amino acids.
2. *Dietary protein*: Herbivores also obtain amino acids directly from plant-based protein sources, like:
- Legumes (e.g., beans, peas, lentils)
- Grains (e.g., wheat, corn, rice)
- Leafy greens (e.g., alfalfa, clover)
The microbes in their gut break down these plant proteins into amino acids, which are then absorbed and utilized by the animal.
Additionally, some herbivores, like ruminants, have a unique ability to recycle nitrogen from urea, which is produced in the liver and excreted in saliva. This urea is then broken down by microbes in the rumen, releasing ammonia, which is used to synthesize amino acids.
So, herbivores have a clever combination of microbial synthesis and dietary protein to meet their amino acid needs! π±π
Would you like to explore more about herbivore nutrition?
[04/01, 15:12]hu1: How do herbivore livers get nitrogen for urea production in their liver?
[04/01, 15:12] Meta AI: π Great question!
Herbivores obtain nitrogen for urea production in their liver from several sources:
1. *Dietary nitrogen*: They get nitrogen from plant-based proteins, like legumes, grains, and leafy greens.
2. *Microbial nitrogen*: The microbes in their gut break down plant proteins and release nitrogen-containing compounds, like ammonia, which are absorbed and transported to the liver.
3. *Endogenous nitrogen*: They also recycle nitrogen from their own body tissues, like muscle proteins, and use it for urea production.
In the liver, these nitrogen sources are converted into ammonia, which is then converted into urea via the urea cycle. The urea is then excreted in urine or recycled back into the gut, where microbes can use it to synthesize amino acids.
Ruminants, like cows, have an additional trick: they can recycle urea from saliva back into the rumen, where microbes break it down into ammonia, which is then used to synthesize amino acids. This clever system helps them conserve nitrogen and optimize protein synthesis! π±π
Would you like to explore more about nitrogen metabolism in herbivores?
[04/01, 15:14]hu2: Please share more details about the plant based proteins that an Indian bison may eat
[04/01, 15:14] Meta AI: π Awesome question!
Indian bison, also known as gaur, are herbivores that inhabit forests and grasslands in India and Southeast Asia. They feed on a variety of plant-based proteins, including:
1. *Grasses*: They graze on various grass species, like bamboo, elephant grass, and wild sugarcane, which contain protein-rich leaves and stems.
2. *Legumes*: They browse on leguminous plants, like beans, peas, and leaves of trees like Acacia and Albizia, which are rich in protein.
3. *Tree leaves*: They feed on leaves from trees like teak, sal, and bamboo, which contain protein-rich compounds.
4. *Fruits and flowers*: They also eat fruits, flowers, and pods from various trees, like figs and mangoes, which provide protein and energy.
Some common plant-based protein sources for Indian bison include:
- Bamboo shoots and leaves (10-15% protein)
- Elephant grass (10-15% protein)
- Wild sugarcane (10-15% protein)
- Acacia leaves (15-20% protein)
- Legume pods and seeds (20-30% protein)
These plant-based proteins help Indian bison meet their amino acid requirements, which are then utilized for muscle growth and maintenance.
Would you like to know more about the diet and nutrition of Indian bison? πΏπ
[04/01, 15:15]hu2: Tell us more about how microbial fermentation of complex carbohydrates help in the production of amino acids
[04/01, 15:15] Meta AI: π Awesome question!
Microbial fermentation of complex carbohydrates is a crucial process in herbivores, like cows and goats. Here's how it helps produce amino acids:
1. *Breaking down complex carbs*: Microbes in the gut, like bacteria and protozoa, break down complex carbohydrates, like cellulose and hemicellulose, into simpler sugars.
2. *Fermentation*: These microbes ferment these sugars, producing volatile fatty acids (VFAs) and releasing energy.
3. *Nitrogen utilization*: The microbes use nitrogen sources, like ammonia or urea, to synthesize amino acids.
4. *Amino acid production*: The microbes produce amino acids, like glutamate and aspartate, using the energy from fermentation and nitrogen sources.
5. *Microbial protein synthesis*: The microbes synthesize proteins using these amino acids, which are then broken down and absorbed by the animal.
This process is like a mini-factory in the gut, where microbes convert complex carbs into amino acids, which are then used by the animal to build its own proteins! π±π
Some key players in this process are:
- Cellulolytic bacteria (e.g., Fibrobacter)
- Amylolytic bacteria (e.g., Streptococcus)
- Protozoa (e.g., Entodinium)
These microbes work together to break down complex carbs and produce amino acids, which are essential for the animal's growth and maintenance.
Would you like to know more about the fascinating world of gut microbes? π
[04/01, 15:17]hu2: Can you share some biochemical pathways mentioning the chemical compounds that lead to amino acid production from complex carbohydrates?
[04/01, 15:17] Meta AI: π Awesome follow-up!
Here are some biochemical pathways involved in amino acid production from complex carbohydrates:
1. *Glycolysis*: Complex carbohydrates → Glucose → Pyruvate → Acetyl-CoA
2. *Citric acid cycle (Krebs cycle)*: Acetyl-CoA → Citrate → Ξ±-Ketoglutarate → Glutamate (amino acid)
3. *Transamination*: Ξ±-Ketoglutarate + Amino group → Glutamate
4. *Amino acid synthesis*: Glutamate → Glutamine, Proline, Arginine
5. *Pentose phosphate pathway*: Glucose-6-phosphate → Ribose-5-phosphate → Histidine, Phenylalanine, Tyrosine
Some key chemical compounds involved:
- Glucose
- Pyruvate
- Acetyl-CoA
- Ξ±-Ketoglutarate
- Glutamate
- Glutamine
- Ammonia (NH3)
- ATP, NADH, FADH2 (energy currencies)
These pathways involve enzymes, co-factors, and microbial metabolism to produce amino acids from complex carbohydrates.
Would you like me to elaborate on any of these pathways or explore other aspects of amino acid production? π
[04/01, 15:19]hu2: Yes elaborate from 3
[04/01, 15:19] Meta AI: π Let's dive deeper into *Transamination* (pathway 3):
*Transamination*: Ξ±-Ketoglutarate + Amino group → Glutamate
In this process:
1. An amino group (-NH2) is transferred from an amino acid (donor) to Ξ±-ketoglutarate (acceptor).
2. The result is Glutamate (an amino acid) and a new keto acid.
3. Enzyme: Transaminase (or Aminotransferase).
Example: Alanine (amino acid) + Ξ±-Ketoglutarate → Pyruvate + Glutamate
Transamination is a key step in amino acid metabolism, allowing nitrogen transfer between amino acids and keto acids.
Would you like me to elaborate on:
- Amino acid synthesis from Glutamate?
- Other pathways (like Pentose phosphate pathway)?
- Something else related to amino acid production? π
[04/01, 15:21]hu2: So to produce an amino acid like glutamate from a carbohydrate the body will need another amino acid such as alanine? Isn't there any other way for the body to synthesize protein from carbohydrates without the need for other amino acids to join in?
[04/01, 15:21] Meta AI: π Spot on!
You're asking if the body can synthesize amino acids from carbs without needing other amino acids as donors. The answer is:
1. *Yes, via ammonia (NH3) incorporation*: Ξ±-Ketoglutarate + NH3 → Glutamate (via Glutamate dehydrogenase)
2. *No need for another amino acid* in this case. Ammonia provides the amino group.
So, the body can synthesize Glutamate from Ξ±-ketoglutarate (derived from carbs) using ammonia. This is a key route for incorporating nitrogen into amino acids.
However, for other amino acids, transamination (like we discussed earlier) often plays a role, requiring an amino group donor like Alanine.
Does that clarify things? π Want to explore further?
[04/01, 15:22]hu2: How would their bodies get ammonia?
[04/01, 15:22] Meta AI: π Great follow-up!
Herbivores get ammonia from:
1. *Dietary nitrogen*: Plants contain nitrogen-rich compounds like nitrates, amino acids, and proteins.
2. *Microbial nitrogen fixation*: Gut microbes convert atmospheric nitrogen (N2) or urea into ammonia (NH3).
3. *Urea recycling*: Urea is broken down by microbes in the gut, releasing ammonia.
In ruminants (like cows), ammonia is produced in the rumen by microbes and absorbed into the bloodstream. In other herbivores, ammonia is produced in the gut and absorbed.
Would you like to explore more about nitrogen metabolism? π
[04/01, 15:24]hu2: Elaborate on how ammonia is produced in the ruminant gut
[04/01, 15:24] Meta AI: π Awesome!
In the ruminant gut (like a cow's rumen):
1. *Microbes break down plant proteins*: Dietary proteins are degraded into amino acids.
2. *Amino acids are deaminated*: Microbes remove amino groups (-NH2) from amino acids, producing ammonia (NH3).
3. *Urea is also broken down*: Urea (from saliva or blood) is converted to ammonia by microbial urease.
4. *Ammonia is absorbed*: NH3 is absorbed into the bloodstream, transported to the liver, and used for urea synthesis or other processes.
The rumen's microbial ecosystem efficiently converts nitrogen sources into ammonia, which is then utilized by the animal.
Want to explore more about ruminant digestion? π
[04/01, 15:25]hu2: Please elaborate how the ruminant gut can convert atmospheric nitrogen into ammonia
[04/01, 15:25] Meta AI: π Whoa, awesome question!
I gotta correct myself: ruminant gut microbes don't actually fix atmospheric nitrogen (N2) into ammonia. π
What I meant earlier was that some microbes in certain environments (like soil or some animal guts) can fix N2 into ammonia via nitrogenase enzymes. But in ruminants:
1. *Microbes break down dietary nitrogen* (like plant proteins, nitrates) into ammonia.
2. *Urea recycling* is a big source of ammonia: urea is broken down by microbial urease in the rumen.
No atmospheric N2 fixation happens in ruminant guts. Thanks for calling that out! π
Want to explore more about nitrogen metabolism or ruminant digestion?
[04/01, 15:26]hu1: What are plant nitrates?
[04/01, 15:26] Meta AI: π Cool question!
Plant nitrates (NO3-) are nitrogen-containing compounds that plants absorb from soil through their roots. These nitrates are:
1. *Converted to amino acids*: Plants use nitrates to synthesize amino acids, proteins, and other nitrogen-containing compounds.
2. *Part of the nitrogen cycle*: Nitrates are a key part of the nitrogen cycle, where nitrogen is converted between forms in the environment.
When herbivores eat plants, these nitrates (and other nitrogen compounds) are broken down in the rumen, contributing to ammonia production.
Want to know more about the nitrogen cycle or plant nutrition? πΏπ
*Thematic analysis learning points*
1. *Microbial fermentation is key*: Herbivores rely on gut microbes to break down complex plant carbohydrates and produce amino acids.
2. *Nitrogen sources are crucial*: Ammonia, from dietary nitrogen, urea recycling, or microbial activity, is essential for amino acid synthesis.
3. *Amino acid synthesis pathways*: Transamination and ammonia incorporation are important routes for producing amino acids from carbohydrates.
4. *Ruminant gut is unique*: The rumen's microbial ecosystem efficiently converts plant nitrogen into ammonia, supporting the animal's protein needs.
5. *Nitrogen cycle is interconnected*: Plant nitrates, microbial activity, and animal metabolism are all linked in the nitrogen cycle.
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