Tuesday, February 27, 2024

UDLCO : LLM consciousness, human looped hallucinations and our illusion of life

UDLCO summary : The conversational transcripts below are initiated in a generativeAI community where there is a question posed around human cognition  in the loop of AI consciousness that leads to the customary probings and feelings around human consciousness and finally AI gets subsumed into "I" 


Conversational learning (adda transcripts) :


As a designer this opportunity to imagine GenAI in a complementary manner ie Human in the loop, is what unleashes the potential of what user experience, based on what human experience, knowledge, behavior, aspirations gets agency to work alongwith AI. As an analogy, in a previous period and the age of MIS, where users gave a request to a room full of lab coat wearing engineers who programmed on punch cards or cobol etc using legacy system, and placed a neat dot matrix printed output report. The human consumer had no influence. Today's AI is much like that. Maybe better when RAG enabled or fine tuned for a domain/boundary condition. 

Human in the loop is more exciting and I wish to see more such collaboration between AI tech and design, research, humanities, cognitive psychologists, neuroaesthetic experts, behavioral scientists. Would love to hear other views.



[2/24, 3:54 PM] R K : The role of human in the loop will be different than the earlier paradigm since the output of GenAI is probabilistic rather than deterministic. So every session of interaction of a human with a system or a session with same query by another human may result in varying outputs. Unlike the example you cite, where deterministic output from human programmed systems resulted in predictable outputs which could be examined for errors, these LLM based systems will not result in the same output for the same query since it is generating the output as a series of probabilistic sequence of words, images, videos etc.


[2/24, 4:08 PM] D S : AI systems need disclaimer in bold. Especially in contexts with 2 outcomes. 
Examples...

Trivial case: Your spouse is likely to prefer movie x (instead of movie y) for a date night.

Extreme case: You don't need to consult with a doctor (when you may need to).

This helps putting the human back in the decision making loop.

May be Gemini wanted to do something similar.


[2/24, 4:19 PM] SDH  : Brilliant point on the distinction between tradition rule based tested systems vs generative ones trained and tuned. But, what if contexts change, like they do in case of human preferences? Would there be situations where variability of output but in deference to a prompt and human in the loop, will be an advantage? Preferred perhaps. What if the agency to manipulate or control trumps variance in output. 

As an analogy, bunch of people with varying diet restriction, preferences approach a lavish buffet and they takeaway with agency and choice exactly what how much is piled on to a plate? The variance in output is reflected in each diner's plate. I am asking you to examine whether human in the loop can develop some variance. Again, if the argument is on unreliability of the AI from a QoS pov, then should we not reimagined our evaluation process frameworks? 

Ram, call me out if I went tangential on your keen point 😀


[2/24, 4:23 PM] SDH : ND, it reminds me of Asimovs 3 laws...paraphrased as such -
1) A GenAI should not cause harm to humans or fail to prevent harm when capable of doing so.
2) A GenAI shall follow instructions provided by humans unless those commands contradict the first principle.
3) A GenAI must safeguard its own well-being, but only if doing so doesn't violate either the first or second principle.



[2/24, 4:46 PM] SrKn: IMHO deterministic? - it's perceived as such by the ones in the moment and probabilistic by ones not in the moment! 🙏



This talks about a lot of the points you brought up regarding the value of human in the loop. AI has the propensity to remove the skill premium rather than taking away jobs completely.




[2/25, 5:06 PM] PK : After reading this I now understand the butlerian jihad in dune 😅

"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind"



[2/25, 5:50 PM] SDH : Indeed! I am familiar with Sangeet's argument as an avid reader and occassional illustrator collaborating with him. That human in the loop augments initially for better AI generated outcomes, but eventually AI subsumes the human expertise, aka skill, to render human in the loop redundant. I argue that why look at human as a constant? After all human observes nature and invented the wheel, dome, engine, space Walker, observer of pale blue dot, poet, writer, artist. My argument is human in the loop is the very purpose of an AI's existence where AI can be generative, while human is inventive. Human in the loop is the real OG, goat and genius. Off topic, is there a philosophy that can explain deep tech? Langdon Winner perhaps?



[2/25, 6:24 PM] U T : this is a fantastic quotable quote sir “AI can be generative, while human is inventive” 🙂 - do (c) it!


[2/25, 6:37 PM] SDH: Sir, CC0 full copyleft 😀



[2/25, 6:41 PM] UT : There is a broader argument that AI will become “inventive” and that’s debatable. Will AI invent the E=mc2 equation equivalent or the new filed of Quantum Mechanics if its never trained on data. Will it figure out Gravitational waves or the DNA structure. Here the line is clear. Pure science type Inventive work can be human. But the line gets fuzzy on daily-inventive work, for the masses. What’s the real risk to the masses. Assuming, Right now AI or GenAI isnt in shape to replace humans adequately. Where do you draw the line of “inventiveness” of which humans sit to the right and AI to the left 🙂


[2/25, 6:43 PM] U T : Will AI stay in the domain of augmenting each field invented by humans, much more efficiently? Likely true. How much? Depends on the cutting-edge-ness of the field. Longer domain fields with documented know-how will be at threat likely?



[2/25, 6:53 PM] G N : With increasing levels of superinteligence in AI why should invention be beyond the realm of possibility ?



[2/25, 7:02 PM] SDH : Sir, because a human can be crazy and want to send a dummy in a car hurting through space (Musk) or demonstrate deep empathy with nature like in one straw revolution (Fukuoka). Human inventiveness defies pattern. But unless AI superintelligence stumbles on to  schumpeters creative destruction to be inventive 🤔


[2/25, 7:08 PM] A E : https://arxiv.org/abs/2401.11817


[2/25, 10:46 PM] U T : Sir how will Regression models of even infinite capacity think of a real Problem and find a real solution and also test it with experimental techniques?
Regression equations by definition are incapable of accuracy beyond the data sets they were based on. Isn’t it?


[2/25, 10:48 PM] Atul Batra NPC: History has proven that humans underestimate the impact of technology in the long run


[2/25, 10:49 PM] Atul Batra NPC: When AGI is talked about, it is meant to signify that it will equal if not exceed human capability


[2/25, 11:26 PM] R$: I will hazard some "outer limit" guesses

1. Inference capabilities will improve dramatically from generation to generation (every 6 months)


2. Quantum / DNA to parallelize and speed up NN layers

3. Perturbations (of random, uniform, periodic, or disordered hyperuniformity nature) introduced to mimic sleep state transitions i.e. we may not need to model the whole brain but only the differences in processing between waking state thinking and sleep state dreaming (one day LLMs may even hallucinate 😉) to mix them and achieve "breakthroughs". After all humans do very well when they sleep on a problem.



[2/26, 9:33 AM] U T : Interesting times ahead Sir
On first principles, I do feel the underlying mathematical foundations of AI might need to shift to get outcomes away from Hallucinations (outcomes of predicting outside the range of Regression data set) to real human-level inventiveness 

Deep sleep is an interesting construct- human ability to tap into domains of knowledge they haven’t consciously pursued (snake biting its tail - benzene molecule — for August Kekulé )- is beyond having data sets. It is jumping to an entirely new data set and domain 

Sure you could encode even this mathematically but at the end of the day the human was intentional in solving a problem. Will machines replicate that intentionality of problem solving and be progressive in inventiveness? Or would they again mathematically hallucinate-  rearing garbage domains and garbage new data sets?

I am not at the cutting edge of AI research so there is a lot I don’t know in this august gathering. I am simply using my human logic at best 😀


[2/26, 9:35 AM] U T : The other mathematical foundational change I hope should philosophically shift is creating a constrained problem-solving model for benefiting humanity - even if constructs like dream state have to be replicated (meaning imagination of new domains beyond current data sets)
That would set AI as a partner to human progress rather than negative outcomes we all worry about



[2/26, 9:38 AM] A E : Even now it is possible to chain LLM outputs to mimic a train of thought- LLMs may also engender better LLMs or better models. Will that approach lead to AGI is anybody’s guess - as of now LLMs are deterministic statistical inference engines



[2/26, 9:41 AM] R$: Agreed. Hence the doodling on my end wondering if reusing nature-tested distributions to perturb the determinism might lead to new desired outcomes.



[2/26, 11:23 AM] Atul Batra NPC: AI won't take over my job, AI will be my job 😅

[2/26, 11:25 AM] Atul Batra NPC: Jaspreet's upcoming session inspired this thought 🙏



[2/26, 11:26 AM] BNV: True. That's how it will be for the foreseeable future. The AI use cases for replacing man power may not be viable for some time to come



[2/26, 11:34 AM] JNK : For folks who haven’t read it yet… Sangeet, as usual provides a good framework and an argument:



[2/27, 8:21 AM] Rakesh Biswas: To be optimistic :

It won't eat my salary (it doesn't have a stomach for money) but it can eat my "food for thought" and redistribute my money in a fair manner among other humans keeping my visceral fat and cholesterol in check!

[2/26, 11:42 AM] P K : There is a model of the human mind, that it is a bunch of agents (aka parts) throwing down playing cards to get into awareness. And the one that has the high card wins awareness. “Consciousness” is when there is something in attention ie won the center stage.

https://www.lesswrong.com/s/ZbmRyDN8TCpBTZSip — VERY long read, but well worth it.

If this is how the mind works (and gets stuck usually), a multi agent driven intelligence will be competitive with a human agent sooner than later.



[2/26, 11:49 AM] U T : This is lovely
My only point of difference is on consciousness. According to Yogic tradition in India and eastern philosophy- consciousness survives death of the organism and its organs including brain, and nervous system. Consciousness is also known to exist without brain and body. It’s non material. I will have fun watching the blundering around “creation of consciousness”
It could be simulated at best in some abstract ways 😀

[2/27, 8:15 AM] Rakesh Biswas: The difference between embodied vs non embodied cognition. 

Embodiment can be in any element either hard metal or soft carbon

[2/26, 11:53 AM] JNK : The movie 'Lucy' *_attempted_* to explain this concept... vaguely!!



[2/26, 12:02 PM] U T : Need to rewatch it. There are some nice AI movies around. Wifelike was rich in its complexity and exposed the criminal selfish ends to which humans will employ this tech !
(Ramana, of Arunachala, has described a distinct experience of consciousness being separate from material body. Tibetean and Indian yogic traditions have many amazing stories that I have researched for many years and enjoyed).


[2/26, 12:37 PM] K B : This is actually a Vedic concept - the "observer" (consciousness) and the "observed" (body). Other variants are "subject" and "object". In the AI world, the model itself is the "observed" while the GAN/discriminator is the "observer". A better GAN can improve "consciousness" of the model and reduce hallucinations.
Now that I think, AGI can be achieved not necessarily because the model gets better, it will rather be due to improvement in GAN/discriminators. AI experts can comment if this understanding is right? or flawed?


[2/27, 8:01 AM] Rakesh Biswas: GAN gyan (apologize in advance if it appears adversarial):

LLM Hallucinations are the necessary step to creative thinking (ref @⁨~Jaspreet Bindra⁩ ) arising from Mr Brahma's (with a white flowing beard)'s uccharanas! 

GAN is the pruning gun of Mr Shiva the ash laden gardener that provides an AGI shape to Mr Brahma's AI! 


[2/26, 12:42 PM] U T : Here is the twist in the tale
Every yogic tradition at its final level speaks of a realm beyond thought. It’s termed as silence or stillness
All human and computer systems stay in domain of thought
What would a thoughtless ai system do? It has no code and no data. It has no value.
Do you see the Paradox here?

Zen practices tried to explain this paradox in human language via Koans:
When both hands are clapped a sound is produced; listen to the sound of one hand clapping

AI can create new Koans but never know zen🤣


[2/27, 8:13 AM] Rakesh Biswas: The last line is another Zen koan! 

One can create koans and yet not know Zen!

[2/26, 1:18 PM] K B : Yes, you are right. But like interpretations of Vedic verses (no single correct answer), we will need to achieve the stillness-1 level for AGI. The stillness itself is open to interpretation (the objective/why).


[2/26, 1:19 PM] K B : We are currently treading on the realm of exceeding the rules of this group 😊



[2/26, 1:20 PM] H V : Hmm. Slightly different in this. 
The observer in the Veda is a living thing ( Chethana ) . Otherwise the space can be the Brahmam since it is all pervading



[2/26, 2:32 PM] K B : I may be wrong, but different vedas & vashyas (interpretation) has annotated different meaning. Essence is there is no "one right answer". Our (interpretor's) personal situation leads to our individual conclusion, and hence it is relevant for all. Vedas are the LLM of the world - each wants something different from it, and it can provide.


[2/27, 8:28 AM] H V : What I meant is AI is not life and hence it cannot be the observer.
On the analogy you mentioned i would cite Vedas as the source/ training material and we ( humans ) are the LLM 's.

Which explains the hallucinations 🤣


[2/27, 8:36 AM] Rakesh Biswas: The consciousness who created vedic data for our biological LLMs to feed on is the source of all the illusion around us that can appear hallucinatory from time to time when Brahma gets busy around 8:30 AM in the group before group admins Shiva1,2,n...  or his day job can bring him to book!


[2/26, 8:12 PM] R K  : Consciousness is the data in your phone. You switch to new and better phone, migrate the data. The phone (body) becomes old and needs to be changed. Not the intelligent (soul) which lives forever.
You also sync your data to the could server, the invisible one (paramatman).


[2/27, 8:31 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Similar lecture :


Lecture video : https://youtu.be/MmbRbKj-7yE (starts at 34 minutes). 


Epilogue :

All the conversations that I inserted above after each previous person conversing was done hours later asynchronously and it may appear as if I'm talking to them synchronously as part of a synchronous conversation whereas the truth is that some of the humans in the conversation haven't replied back even as I tagged their conversations in my reply to theirs. 

Thought : Is deep fake from deeper layered data interaction a result of nodal  asynchrony? 

The replies that came later  asynchronously listed below as per timed transcripts :
 
[2/27, 8:01 AM] Rakesh Biswas: GAN gyan (apologize in advance if it appears adversarial):

LLM Hallucinations are the necessary step to creative thinking (ref @⁨~Jaspreet Bindra⁩ ) arising from Mr Brahma's (with a white flowing beard)'s uccharanas! 

GAN is the pruning gun of Mr Shiva the ash laden gardener that provides an AGI shape to Mr Brahma's AI! 



[2/27, 8:13 AM] Rakesh Biswas: The last line is another Zen koan! 

One can create koans and yet not know Zen!


[2/27, 8:15 AM] Rakesh Biswas: The difference between embodied vs non embodied cognition. 

Embodiment can be in any element either hard metal or soft carbon


[2/27, 8:21 AM] Rakesh Biswas: To be optimistic :

It won't eat my salary (it doesn't have a stomach for money) but it can eat my "food for thought" and redistribute my money in a fair manner among other humans keeping my visceral fat and cholesterol in check!


[2/27, 8:31 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Similar lecture :



[2/27, 8:36 AM] Rakesh Biswas: The consciousness who created vedic data for our biological LLMs to feed on is the source of all the illusion around us that can appear hallucinatory from time to time when Brahma gets busy around 8:30 AM in the group before group admins Shiva1,2,n...  or his day job can bring him to book!

The conversations below were generated in response to the last of my above replies asynchronously later as dated and timed below:

[2/27, 9:15 AM] A E : The notion that Vedas are a store house of eternal knowledge is just a myth propagated by those who have not taken out time to go through them - they are essentially hymns composed for recital which contains  mantras, tantras ( rituals), sometimes lofty aphorisms, and occasionally brilliant poetry and a rich tapestry of historically important beliefs, people references and events. You should reserve the knowledge moniker to Upanishads - essentially the nastika school including Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Samkhya, Mimamsa and Vedanta - but they pale in comparison to the lofty heights Budhist philosophy reached including the work of Buddha, Nagarjuna, Dingnaga and others - primarily Madhyamika, Prajnaparamita and Sautantrika schools - which went deep into logic, epistemology, phenominology, ontology and ethics - which also has some original treatise on nature of truth and structure of language. But all these are early advances and western philosophical advances post renaissance including works of Spinoza, Kant, Schopenhauer, Heidegger and Wittgenstein has advanced the discipline leaps and bounds. I hope Indians start studying Budhist schools and give them their due.


[2/27, 9:21 AM] H V : It is Vedanta veda-Anta for a reason. 
Sometimes skipping ahead will create confusion rather than enhance it. 
Take the Mexican fisherman and American millionaire ecample. Or Imagine a laser which is not sharp



[2/27, 9:24 AM] A E : Actually Vedanta is philosophy though mostly metaphysics where as Vedas are poetry - Budhists were the first to initiate organised research into knowledge in India. Please note Buddha negates the preponderance of the Vedas as do most nastika schools



at No comments:

UDLCO : Drosophila animal models in citizen science home labs for home healthcare (Neurodegenerative disorders and diabetes)

 


UDLCO summary :

CUBE is a well known group of Indian school students who regularly discuss and perform science in their home labs and there's more about them here: 
https://www3.hbcse.tifr.res.in/research-development/collaboratively-understanding-biology-education-cube
We participated in their discussion around culturing drosophila and discussed various research collaborative opportunities from the fly particularly focused on solutions for neurodegenerative disorders and diabetes. 


[2/21, 10:21 PM] Prof CUBE : @⁨~A @⁨~S⁩ Please write a good summary on *how we can do research on Parkinson's Disease* in HomeLabs, *using Fruitflies*.


[2/21, 10:40 PM] student : Summary-
I have been culturing drosophila fruit flies from 9th feb and observation was done regularly in the bottle so initially there were 10-15 flies which i transferred and today approximately there are more than 50 flies in the same bottle. I have been using BRSV medium and explained the process of how i made it and how culturing was done.


[2/21, 10:40 PM] : Above i have posted the photos and video of that bottle



[2/22, 8:51 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Will be looking forward to hearing more about how you plan to utilize them as animal models for Parkinson's 

Here's a cognition primer in this direction👇



[2/22, 12:05 PM] B P : @⁨Rakesh Biswas⁩ thanks for sharing the article.Is this fly a candidate for Parkinson's mutant based on the phenotype : taking longer time to climb after being knocked down.@⁨~Akanksha Joshi⁩  @⁨~Rahul Sunita Kushwaha⁩ and others


[2/22, 12:05 PM] B P : All the flies are of same species and same age.


[2/22, 12:31 PM] B P : One more trial to see how far the flies can climb.As you  see here too one fly is moving v slowly


[2/22, 4:14 PM] A J : 

Summary

This is the video of the bottle of flies transferred to BRSV medium on 9th feb and now observation is that we can see the BRSV medium turning brown in colour upwards and the flies are more than 50 in number also there are approximately 50 pupae and 20-30 larvae in the bottle. On 9th feb i had transferred only 10-15 adult flies. Also the flies are showing upward climbing movement in the video also known as negative geotaxis.



[2/22, 4:15 PM] AJ : This is the photo of the BRSV medium which i prepared


[2/22, 4:24 PM] Prof A : Please give more details of each photo. @⁨~Akanksha Joshi⁩


[2/22, 7:14 PM] A S : *Potential anti-diabetic effect of certain plant extracts from the Egyptian flora on type II diabetes using Drosophila melanogaster as an animal model.*

Phytochemical screening of the tested plants revealed the presence of several constituents such as carbohydrates, glycosides, sterols and/or triterpenes, catechol tannins and flavonoids. Conclusion: The tested plant extracts, particularly A. halimus can recover and improve the symptoms of T2D in Drosophila. 

[2/23, 7:48 AM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Interesting!

What are the symptoms of T2D in Drosophila?


Drosophila melanogaster has been used as a very versatile and potent model in the past few years for studies in metabolism and metabolic disorders, including diabetes types 1 and 2. Drosophila insulin signaling, despite having seven insulin-like peptides with partially redundant functions, is very similar to the human insulin pathway and has served to study many different aspects of diabetes and the diabetic state. Yet, very few studies have addressed the chronic nature of diabetes, key for understanding the full-blown disease, which most studies normally explore. One of the advantages of having Drosophila mutant viable combinations at different levels of the insulin pathway, with significantly reduced insulin pathway signaling, is that the abnormal metabolic state can be studied from the onset of the life cycle and followed throughout



[2/23, 10:35 AM] Ab : In this experiment, adult female insects were placed in a new vial to lay eggs on a standard diet. After two days, larvae were transferred to a high-sugar diet to induce type 2 diabetes. Then, these larvae were split into groups: one fed a regular diet, another fed a diet with plant extracts, and a third group fed a diet mixed with Glimepiride, a drug used to treat diabetes. The larvae were left to develop for 24 hours under each condition, and this process was repeated five times for accuracy. This setup aims to understand how different diets and substances affect larval development, particularly in relation to diabetes.



[2/23, 11:37 AM] Ab : Different model organisms were used to 
identify the pharmacological properties of 
different plant extracts such as mice (Adhikarimayum et al., 2007), Zebrafish (Giacomotto and Ségalat, 2010), Caenorhabditis 
elegans (Kumarasingha et al., 2016), and 
Drosophila melanogaster (Mezzoug et al., 2006). Each model organism possesses special 
advantages and limitations (Panchal and Tiwari, 2017). Many features make a fruit fly the ideal 
model for experimentation as it is easy to 
handle, produces a large number of flies, and 
the life cycle is short (Va et al., 2009; Panchal and Tiwari, 2017). This model has approximately 75% similarity with disease-
causing genes in humans (Reiter et al., 2001; Nass and Przedborski, 2011; Sengupta et al., 2016). Many studies have revealed that most biological signaling pathways are conserved between the fruit fly and human (Apidianakis and Rahme, 2011; O’Kane, 2011) Additionally, this model can simply feed on a diet to cause the disease and then transferred to another diet 
mixed with the plant extract to observe the 
recovery 




[2/23, 4:55 PM] Rakesh Biswas: But less effective than Glimeperide. 

To quote from that paper:

"The total body glucose of 
HSD-fed larvae was significantly (P ˂ 0.033)
higher than that in the control (Bonferroni and 
Dunn tests). However, when the diabetic larvae 
fed on a diet treated with the plant extract or 
Amaryl drug, the total body glucose significantly 
(P < 0.033) decreased compared with those in 
HSD-fed larvae. All plant extracts used were 
able to recover the total body glucose near the 
control level. Meanwhile, the Amaryl drug 
significantly (P ˂ 0.033) decreased the body 
glucose lower than the control."



[2/23, 4:59 PM] Ab : So the study is leaving a scope for us to explore that if plant extracts be made more or equally effective as compared to Amaryl Drugs? @⁨~Akanksha Joshi⁩ @⁨~Batul Pipewala⁩ @⁨~SMIT LOKHANDE⁩ @⁨~Smiti⁩ @⁨~Dhanraj⁩ @⁨~Theertha⁩



[2/23, 5:09 PM] Rakesh Biswas: There apparently aren't any symptomatology yet that have been well defined as in Parkinson's well illustrated by @⁨~Batul Pipewala⁩ 's video where she noticed inability to climb. 

@⁨~Abhijeet Singh⁩ 's shared paper simply measured the tissue or presumably lymphatic sugars, that too after gruesomely mincing their children!




[2/23, 5:12 PM] Ab : what is meaning of  P<0.033?



[2/23, 5:12 PM] Rakesh Biswas: It just indicates statistically significant in the frequentist paradigm



[2/23, 5:16 PM] Ab : This is other paper 

Rulifson et al. (7) performed a complete elimination of fruit fly IPCs through gene modification and found fruit fly larvae showed type 1 diabetes phenotypes such as hyperglycemia, weight loss, and developmental delay. Then Broughton et al. (48) discovered that fruit flies with partial elimination of IPCs could also develop the above phenotypes. Similarly, Zhang et al. (49) in 2009 knocked out the expression of Dilp1-5 genes, which caused fruit flies to present with metabolic defects similar to type 1 diabetes in mammals, such as stunted growth, small size, elevated glucose levels, and poor fertility. 




[2/23, 5:51 PM] Prof Arunan Tata Institute: What are Amaryl drugs? @⁨~Abhijeet Singh⁩ @⁨Rakesh Biswas⁩ Is it like Insulin?🙃🧐


[2/23, 6:14 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Amaryl is a company name. The original name is Glimeperide and it's an agent that forces the pancreas to secrete whatever insulin it has. That's the reason it doesn't work in type 1 diabetes where the entire pancreas is destroyed. It works in type 2 where 30% of the pancreatic beta cells are preserved



[2/24, 9:45 PM] Rakesh Biswas: We'll need a drosophila gene kit? 





@⁨Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015⁩ 

The simple and functional design allows Drosophila researchers to drop a fly into the cartridge, turn on the instrument, and walk away.



[2/25, 9:17 AM] Prof Arunan Tata Institute: We would like to develop *HomeLab methods for isolation of DNA* from model systems, first.



[2/25, 12:59 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Let's begin to think of possible DIY solutions available for that @⁨Avinash BMJ Elective⁩ @⁨Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015⁩



[2/25, 1:07 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Yes..

What's the model system?


Concept is simple..

1.Sample collection and disruption-Breaks down the cells and releases DNA from cells and tissues.
2.Digest the proteins-So that DNA gets unbound and can easily be extracted
3.DNA extraction-Salt to stabilise DNA.Centrifuge to seperate DNA from other cellular components.
4.dna precipitation-alcohol commonly used
5.collection and storage



Can try all these steps with household ingredients as well



[2/25, 1:11 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Soo..

1.Take the model system(any fruit/veggie)-Cut into small pieces and put in mixer or blender
2.Add some water and make it slurry..
3.add some detergent to break cell membrane.Blend the mixture till it gets smooth..
4 filter using filter paper .
5 transfer filtered liquid to another container..add little salt(less than half spoon)..so that,charge gets neutralized and DNA clumps together and precipitated. 
6 we need any alcohol for this step(isopropyl alcohol in sanitizer may help)



[2/25, 1:27 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Can you find a YouTube home demo DIY video of the above mentioned steps and share the links?



[2/25, 1:28 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: https://youtu.be/nq3raQX2mlA?si=ey3NxDHW0bifbrlQ


[2/25, 1:28 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Not this one. This was done 

We need to do it in drosophila 

Also we need to identify the genes and not the macro clumps alone



[2/25, 1:34 PM] Rakesh Biswas: 👆@⁨Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015⁩ For example if you have to make this gene model in drosophila how would you manipulate it's genes?



[2/25, 1:37 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: We may have to use manipulation techniques



[2/25, 3:06 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: We can try some frugal RNAi or gene knockout but the approach will be simplified and may not achieve same level of specificity and efficiency as lab methods



[2/25, 3:07 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: For DIY methods also,we need RNAi kits



[2/25, 3:42 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Read this article now! 

One of the feeling driven realization I had was traditional Chinese medicine could be same as Ayurveda!! @⁨Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015⁩ 

Amazing potential of the fruit fly though



[2/25, 3:53 PM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: 'The known anti-diabetic active ingredients of traditional Chinese medicines include polysaccharides, flavonoids, saponins, and alkaloids (77–79). The studies based on the Drosophila diabetes model have notably enhanced this standpoint. However, the components of traditional Chinese medicines are complex, and only a little number of bioactive compounds from them have been well-elucidated. Thus, traditional medicines may also have potential adverse effects besides potential benefits.'

👆🏻Yes..reminded the other day's ayurveda formulations article.. 

Fruitfly is amazing!

As mentioned in this article,

'The fruit fly has obvious advantages as a diabetes model: (1) it is small and can be easily raised in large quantities in the laboratory (8); (2) it has a short life-cycle (10–12 days) and thus it is the data results of certain studies based on it that can be obtained quickly; (3) it has complex neuropils and neural circuits and rather complicated behaviors; (4) it only has four chromosomes in relatively smaller genome size, but those can match 75% pathogenic genes of human (9); (5) its genome is well-annotated in complete sequence; (6) dozens of powerful genetic tools are developed on fruit fly, which can provide convenient approaches to achieve various genetic manipulations, including UAS-GAL4, LexA-lexAop, QF-QUAS, and mosaic analysis; (7) The reduction of the cost of experimental research.'

The kits mentioned here are for gene knockout or RNAi

[2/25, 8:08 PM] Prof N : Let me study
Drosophila BTW has been studied by Lakhotia et all for screening g of Ayurvedic drugs


[2/25, 8:12 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Made me feel that the ancient Ayurvedic wisdom that was lost in India due to invaders may still be surviving in China! 

Yu tu got a Nobel for Qiinghaousu now block buster Artemesin, which I'm sure is based on the principles of Ayurveda



[2/25, 8:26 PM] Rakesh Biswas: The lost Ayurvedic wisdom is not just in the type of herb but the way it's prepared and consumed? 

To quote :

"As Tu also presented at the project seminar, its preparation was described in a 1,600-year-old text, in a recipe titled, "Emergency Prescriptions Kept Up One's Sleeve". At first, it was ineffective because they extracted it with traditional boiling water. Tu discovered that a low-temperature extraction process could be used to isolate an effective antimalarial substance from the plant;[12] Tu says she was influenced by a traditional Chinese herbal medicine source, The Handbook of Prescriptions for Emergency Treatments, written in 340 by Ge Hong, which states that this herb should be steeped in cold water.[13] This book instructed the reader to immerse a handful of qinghao in the equivalent of 0.4 litres of water, wring out the juice, and drink it all.[3] After rereading the recipe, Tu realised the hot water had already damaged the active ingredient in the plant; therefore she proposed a method using low-temperature ether to extract the effective compound instead."



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UDLCO : Indian medical Faculty and students disdain for research and addressing the issue

UDLCO : Indian medical Faculty and students disdain for research and addressing the issue 


Summary : There appearance to be an in general disdain for the word research among Indian medical faculty and post graduate students as evidenced in the conversational learning inputs below. First step to address this would be to provide them an understanding on how research and academics is nothing but a tool (not necessarily a quantitative black box tool alone) to solve real life problems. 

[2/23, 8:22 PM] vKsrtc : If your junior faculty and PG students are not trained in atleast BCBR, then it’s such a tough job for the IRB and IEC… cause each and every presentation is like the elephant and the 5 blind men…!! Phew… 😥


[2/23, 8:42 PM] Physiology Prof Meu: For that one needs to have trained professors and guides who are meant to train them with regular follow up activities, one time BCBR course is not the ultimate..


[2/23, 8:51 PM] PtSrtc : Forcing students least interested in research to engage in research. Forcing students who spend in excess of one crore to get MD degree to engage in research so later they can earn 40K as researchers


[2/23, 8:53 PM] Physiology Prof Meu:

Research culture has to be built in any organization, it can never be forced upon.

If it is forced and made mandatory, then it is compromised with quality.


[2/23, 8:56 PM] PtSrtc : Fully agree. But what is the ground reality?


[2/23, 8:57 PM] Physiology Prof Meu: Ground reality is created by us only, isn't that so?


[2/23, 9:05 PM] PtSrtc : Here I beg to differ. Ground reality is created by facilities available, inclination of students joining PG, inclination of people joining academics, research environment of the institute, availability or lack of funds etc etc.


[2/23, 9:09 PM] Prof Comm Med: Push (external) & pull (internal) factors will be there for both success/ failure.


[2/23, 9:18 PM] Physiology Prof Meu: Thats "we" only.


[2/23, 9:37 PM] BnySrtc : Instead of forced PG thesis, they should may be introduce grace marks or academic points ...which might build a better CV for those who want a academic & research career still being a clinician and the system   can free those PGs who have no plans in research or academics as a career or interest



[2/23, 9:44 PM] Prof Comm Med: If a doctor is unable to do PG dissertation in three years in an institution under faculty guidance, then he/ she is unlikely to do it alone later after passing MD/MS without faculty guidance/ insitutional set up. 🤐😷



[2/23, 9:45 PM] BnySrtc : Why do it, if they have no inclination towards it is the basic question here


[2/23, 9:47 PM] NdSrtc : MBBS degree was sufficient in old days



[2/23, 9:47 PM] Prof Comm Med: PGs who do not want to dissertation for three years can be given two years PG diploma without dissertation as earlier system under MCI.


[2/23, 9:49 PM] SrjSrtc : Let them not do.... Let them just practice as clinicians.... Ultimately they have to work as clinicians.... 99.99.will just be clinicians after completion of p. g.... Just they have to do dissertation only as a requirement in pg. course... If it is not made mandatory, very few will willingly opt for it... Any one willingly doing should get full training and support... My opinion...


[2/23, 9:52 PM] BnySrtc : By this a good clinician will be respected in his field of work and a good researcher will be taken seriously and given due respect and resources


[2/23, 9:54 PM] KySrtc : There are few clinicians who hardly know about Excel or word. Atleast through dissertation they will become familiar with few words like sample size, p value, chi square test etc. otherwise it vl be vry odd even ..when a common degree BSC, or bph patients come to know that their treating doctor not even know about basic terms.....
Wts loss in learning...if needed u can use in further articles or papers if not no problem




[2/23, 9:56 PM] KySrtc : Why only IT persons or MBA or CA should walk with laptops and not medicos.....or ask them for help in Microsoft/ data sorting etc .....when u hv read  15+ subject in ur career why not one more


[2/23, 9:57 PM] SrjSrtc : Treatment of any disease is not related to whether clinician knows excel or data or sample size.. Clinicians need to know how to diagnose and treat a condition.... Also how to prevent it...


[2/23, 9:58 PM] Prof Comm Med: Medical Representatives may teach all necessary knowledge in their clinics, if they don't learn research methodology, ethics, statistics, evidence based medicine during academic training in teaching hospitals.


[2/23, 10:01 PM] kysrtc : Once a clinician is always a clinician irrespective of number of patients treated. But why should such an educated, learned skilled person present himself dumb in such an easy subjects....leave other professionals....atleast in front of your non-medical spouse / friends/siblings/own children



[2/24, 4:31 AM] adSrtc : The art and science of trashing irrelevant research should be taught first


[2/24, 8:32 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Aka critical appraisal


[2/24, 8:42 AM] Rakesh Biswas: I feel most faculty have this disdain toward research because they have a wrong view of what research means and they may think it's all to do with mastering quantitative methodological terms etc that somehow generate results in a black box non meaningful manner and to be further provocative I will state that this is all the fault of our community medicine faculty who are largely population and public health experts and try to promote the above idea of research! 😅

On the other hand general medicine deals with individual patients (I guess this is what people here mean by clinical work and excellence) and is naturally qualitative having to deal with a lot of textual and common sense data generating meaning rather than numerical values that are hard to corroborate with reality! 

We need to urgently introduce more and more faculty to this form of qualitative research to understand it's ability to create an impact one patient at a time! Most clinicians are doing it anyway but it can be made better many times through documentation and communication toward collective meaningful impact

[2/24, 9:39 AM] Prof Comm Med: Why blame particular dept? If one is interested in research, he can do it in any field - hospital or community based, irrespective of clinical or non-clinical dept. Even some UGs come up with good ideas, proposals, conduct research & present in conferences & publish papers. Its all about internal motivation & external enabling factors.

[2/24, 9:44 AM] Rakesh Biswas: 

Meant to be provocative! 

Next provocation :

There's nothing non clinical in medicine. 

Again the community Medicine department is to blame for differentiating healthcare into these silos and making everyone lose sight of the whole patient! 😅

[2/24, 9:54 AM] RRSrtc  : Some faculty in the dept maybe. Don’t blame particular specialty with shallow understanding about it.


[2/24, 9:56 AM] Rakesh Biswas: I'm provoking those department faculty specifically because they have the deepest understanding of research (as per my shallow understanding)! 😅


/24, 9:41 AM] NSrtc : 

If I'm wrong please say so,
Majority of faculties are commoners. Those were mostly seduced at an impressionable age to join a stream in the presumptive benefit of the family / clan. Nobody discussed the horror of 'grave hour' duty schedule. None of the so called well wishers had ever bothered to elaborate meaning of ' Indentured servitude'. 

May be our guardians were so accustomed to this kind of invisible services, they took it as an integral part of mundane existence and the sole purpose of living and to be recognised in a very predictable way.  A technical brain wash is done and an adolescent is committed to a noble cause ( do not read hara-kiri). Specially when parents and or benevolents are readily paying for tution and boarding (a la on human bondage).


Unless there is direct incentive ( whatever it may be) there will be hardly any spontaneous 'research long march'. 
Only administrative threat of injunction towards carrier advancement will yield mandatory average quality research products in obscure, average and lost in the crowd magazines (journals). 

To me it is a kind of 'two child' family mandate recently introduced in China. We are hopelessly trapped in an academic war zone and anxiously waiting for further order from upper echelon and digging around and sniffing to retrieve new academic material to publish.

Faculties have other headaches (read burden, commitments, responsibility and priorities) where research comes as a largesse for a few, not for the mass.
To be honest, only single minded and workaholic individuals can churn out good research material consistently in the professional career. But for a majority it is a last resort of appeasement with the authority. 

Medical professionals are not special or unique because of their 4&1/2 years of regimental training. They belong to middle class average working population bogged in various emotional, social and financial mortgages.





[2/24, 9:49 AM] Rakesh Biswas: 

Agree with these views. 

Only it may be a lack of proper management of time and resources, essentially a systems management issue that we could be lamenting here? 

Also can empathize and totally agree with the levels of complexity and humongous amount of data points a practising doctor has to deal with because of the current faulty systems design. 

Again provoking as a devil's advocate:

Isn't it all our fault as medical faculty that we couldn't properly research and design our own workflows because we are allergic to complexity and uncertainty? 😅




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Sunday, February 25, 2024

Case report : *AyurEmergency Case 53*: Ayurvedic Emergency Management of Shwasa Kastata ( AECOPD ) in *train journey*  🚆


Case report : *AyurEmergency Case 53*: Ayurvedic Emergency Management of Shwasa Kastata ( AECOPD ) in *train journey*  🚆


Abstract : Ayurvedic interventions in emergency situations are not commonly communicated although it may be common. In this case report Dr Ahmed Savani, a practicing young  vaidya shares his experiences in using Ayurvedic patient during a train journey in a critically ill patient. 

The case was first reported in the form of whatsapp texts. 

[2/24, 10:32 AM] Dr  Ahmed Savani: *High Risk : Explained to relative who had already taken *DAMA* (discharge against medical advice) to return to his hometown Basti UP from Mumbai which takes approx 3 days to reach there.


[2/24, 10:33 AM] Dr Ahmed Savani: On observing bandage on hand, I inquired the history of Hospitalization 🏥  K/C/O of COPD  with Hyperbilirubinemia & Severe Anemia


[2/24, 10:37 AM] Dr Ahmed Savani: 🔰 Ayurvedic Emergency Management of *AECOPD (Acute exacerbations of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease)*

At *12:30 AM on 6th Feb 2024*, aboard the Avadh Express from Mumbai to Surat I was travelling, a critical situation of *respiratory distress, termed as Shwasa Kastata*, was arrived and being only doctor in the train I was been called to address the situation.

The patient, a 50-year-old male with a medical history of *COPD, Hyperbilirubinemia, and Severe Anemia* (RBC 1.9 & HB 7), opted to leave against medical advice *(DAMA)* from ... Hospital to travel to ..., UP.

Upon assessment, the patient was conscious and oriented, with an *unreadable Spo2* likely due to hypotension or peripheral circulation cessation, and a *pulse rate of 140+/min*. Accompanied by his brother and child, the patient lacked proper reservation and was sleeping under a lower berth. 

In *absence of medical services* on the train or at the nearest station, and no oxygen supply at Surat Railway station, a decision was made to *initiate Ayurvedic emergency management* after obtaining *proper medicolegal consent*.

As the sole medical officer present, it was imperative to stabilize the patient clinically using *Ayurvedic emergency medications*. 

Subsequently, upon reaching Surat Railway Station, immediate contacts were utilized to arrange for the patient's transfer to the nearby SMC Hospital via ambulance equipped with oxygen supply.

- Vaidya Ahmed Savani 
Surat Gujarat


[2/24, 10:40 AM] Dr Ahmed Savani: Witness the *outcome of Emergency Ayurvedic Management* within *an hour*, where the *SpO2*, initially unreadable, *improved to 80+* and the *pulse*, initially 140+, *decreased to 102*. Overall patient got clinically stable... *Shwasa Kastata & Shwasa vega*  got almost resolved and reduced to major extent.

Despite the *patient's high risk* condition, their relatives desired to continue their journey by train for two more days. However, prioritizing safety and well-being, it was advised to provide *oxygen supply* and hospitalize the patient in Surat, the nearest railway station. 

Consequently, the patient dropped of at *Surat Railway Station* and promptly taken to the nearest Government Hospital via an ambulance equipped with oxygen facilities.

UDLCO : 

[2/24, 10:50 AM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Interesting!

[2/24, 10:57 AM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: What's the intervention you have done?

[2/24, 11:31 AM] Elective Ahmed Savani: 🔰 First of all the treatment I'll be sharing is *not at all based on Modern Diagnosis* 

Based on Nadi Pariksha, Darshan Sparshana and Prashana and Ayurvedic Iridology 👁 Test...*Treatment was based on Ayurvedic Nidana*


[2/24, 11:31 AM] Dr Ahmed Savani: *Ayurvedic Treatment given during the emergency*

1. Shwasa Kasa Chintamani Pottali 

2. Eladi Vati 

3. Pradhaman Nasya to stabilize the patient and Spo2

About the author :

I'm *Dr. Vd. Ahmed S. Savani* from *Surat, Gujarat*; 

MD RSBK (AYU) from GAMRC Goa.

CRAV (New Delhi) Rasa Aushadikaran & Rasa Chikitsa - Pune.

Practicing as *Consultant Ayurveda Physician* @ Blessing Hospital Multispeciality Surgical & Integrated Ayurvedic Oncology Centre, Surat.

Working as Nadi-Vaidya, Rasa-Vaidya and working as *Ayurvedic Iridologist 👁 since 2015*. I have a very strong inclination toward *Ayurveda Oncology* & *Aushadhikaran* (Customization of Preparing Personalized Classical Ayurveda Medicines like Rasakalpa & Kasthaushadhis for my patients and certain Vaidyas & Doctors across India and abroad) and *Clinical Research in Ayurveda in Rasashastra*. 

Currently also working on an innovative start-up project funded under *GSBTM* (Gujarat State Biotechnology Mission), *DST, Govt of India 🇮🇳* on *Bhasma Gamitva: Targeted Drug Delivery Ayurvedic Nanomedicines in Cancer as well as Acute Emergency and Chronic diseases.*

Core Team Member of *Ayur-Emergency Project* under Minstry of AYUSH & RGUHS Bangalore, initiated last year having *multidisciplinary team* of Modern Doctors ranging from Oncologist, Oncosurgeon, Hemato-oncologist and from AYUSH System of Medicine  Ayurveda: Rasa Vaidya, Netra Vaidya, Visha Vaidya, Siddha Vaidya, Homeopathy, Biotechnologist, Nanotechnologist, Musician, Statistician, Mathematician etc.. 

We conducted a nationwide *Ayur-Emergency Yatra* at various institutions as well as get together with the *Ayurveda Physician* already working using Ayurvedic Protocols for TB, Cancer and several Chronic as well as Acute Emergency even in ICU for their proper documentation.



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Saturday, February 24, 2024

UDLCO: Biodiversity, climate change adversely affected by global diets including Indian idlis!

 

UDLCO summary : Often a global study  comes out in a high impact journal that is lapped up by Indian journalists to provide an Indian slant that ensures it will make their newspapers even if that may or may not improve citation metrics for the original study authors. The paper under discussion successfully angers Indian newspaper readers with references to their favorite diet and reflexly make them pooh pooh the paper as gobbledygook particularly as papers are increasingly getting written in a style that is not for average plain English consumption. 
The paper needs to be understood in simple terms with first understanding more about biodiversity which to summarize drastically is best represented by a pristine forest untouched by humans! Now just think of the first human settlers there coming and razing some of the forests to convert it into agricultural land. In short that's the message of the paper which identifies how certain human diets beget more and more agricultural land with resulting loss of biodiversity and pre human animal habitat destruction. It simply reflects global human population of food consumers and their diets. If there are more Indians in this globe consuming more idlis based on rice cultivation, it's a logical outcome and doesn't really tell anything about Indians or their diet? What is more important is what happens to biodiversity after humans start converting agricultural land to urban dwellings! It's reaching irreversible proportions of mass  extinction?

Conversational learning adda transcripts:

In a global academic discussion group :

[2/23, 8:25 AM] Rakesh Biswas: On a related note (as far as food is concerned) here's a Plos one study fresh off the shelves and making waves in India as it dared to defile the venerated idli and I longingly quote (unjournalistically providing some background before jumping to the idli part) :

"Habitat loss for food production is a key threat to global biodiversity. Despite the importance of dietary choices on our capacity to mitigate the on-going biodiversity crisis, unlike with specific ingredients or products, consumers have limited information on the biodiversity implications of choosing to eat a certain popular dish. Here we estimated the biodiversity footprints of 151 popular local dishes from around the world when globally and locally produced and after calorical content standardization."

"The biodiversity footprint was calculated using three biodiversity indicators, namely species richness, threatened species richness, and range rarity affected by converting natural habitat to cropland or pastureland. Additionally, we considered four scenarios, feedlot-grown and locally produced, feedlot-grown and globally produced, pasture-grown and locally produced, and pasture-grown and globally produced. In the globally produced scenarios, biodiversity footprint was calculated based on the global distribution of species and crops, while the locally produced scenarios were calculated at the country level."

Ambiguous ingredient types and measurements

When an ingredient was specified in a generic manner, the top ingredient of that type in terms of global production was assumed. For instance, soybean oil was assumed when only “oil” was mentioned in the recipe.

High-biodiversity-footprint chicken, rice, and legume dishes tended to be from India and included chicken jalfrezi (type of tomato-based chicken curry), chicken chaat, chana masala, idli (savoury rice cake), and rajma (red kidney beans curry) (Fig 2)."





[2/23, 8:26 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Longingly was longishly before it got ACeed



[2/23, 9:23 AM] +1 (317) : Phew! I don’t say this often: This is a very poorly written paper IMO. Very convoluted sentences and difficult-to-follow sentence structure! Took a long time to read, and even then, I’m not sure I completely understand what’s being said. 

That said, what I took away is that it’s not that idli or any other dish has a high biodiversity footprint _per se_; its footprint is high because the ingredients have been sourced from India - as the agricultural product has been grown by encroaching on farmland that was “taken” from animals in India.. 

So, if my understanding is correct, if I made idli at home with ingredients sourced locally, then the biodiversity footprint should be much lower.



[2/23, 9:42 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Slight clarification :

Yes the article does pose a formidable reading challenge 😅

I had to read it to figure out what Indian journalists meant when they cooked it further here:


And as suspected they didn't get it.

Can't claim to have understood it well myself but the main goal of their research appears to pivot around their concern for dwindling global biodiversity (think of the real Amazon ecosystem) and anything we humans grow, wherever, is surely going to affect it?

The only way to have minimal biodiversity impact would be to revert to foraging than growing our food and letting the Earth reclaim it's territory from the vast amounts of agricultural land humans stole from it in their blink and miss evolutionary timeline? 

The article off course doesn't attempt to touch that aspect but simply points out how humans stole from the Earth simply with their growing eating habits as opposed to their earlier foraging habits!



[2/23, 9:55 AM] +1 (317): In any case, no one’s going to give up idli based on this analysis.



[2/23, 10:00 AM] Rakesh Biswas: We would need to give up eating anything but foraged food according to this analysis! 😅

[2/23, 10:03 AM] +1 (317): True

Same time in another global Metapsych group :

[2/23, 8:09 AM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Dishes with beef as the main ingredient (e.g. picanha, fraldinha (both beef cuts), chili con carne (spicy stew with chili peppers, beef and beans), and beef tartare (raw ground beef dish) were frequently top dishes in terms of biodiversity footprint under all three biodiversity indicators in all scenarios. In addition, we found a consistent significantly lower biodiversity footprint for vegan and vegetarian dishes compared to dishes containing meat. These results agree with previous studies finding a lower environmental impact associated with meatless diets [36]. The high biodiversity footprint associated with feedlot-grown beef is explained because cows have a less efficient and below-average feed conversion ratio as compared to the other animals [37]. For pasture-grown beef, it is also a result of cows requiring a large grazing area per unit of meat produced.


From same article


[2/23, 8:13 AM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Vegan and vegetarian dishes in general had — as expected — lower biodiversity footprints than dishes that contained meat. But, the researchers said, it was surprising to find that dishes with rice and legumes as main ingredients also had high biodiversity footprints.

“The large impacts of legumes and rice in India was a surprise, but when you think about it, it makes sense,



From same article.


Alternative for rice as staple food?

Millets?



[2/23, 8:13 AM] Rakesh Biswas: This could make you rethink your rightist cow project! 😅

Cows and all animals (including monkeys without tails) are better off in terms of biodiversity only in jungles


[2/23, 8:15 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Can't spare the leftist either here!


[2/23, 8:15 AM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Dairy industry causes almost as much harm as meat industry.

Nonetheless,we gotta start controlling somewhere


[2/23, 8:17 AM] Rakesh Biswas: How?

In terms of biodiversity how can we promote healthier cow rearing options? 

Even grazing is not a great option as the article shows!

Learn from Nilgais or wild cows in the jungle?


[2/23, 8:18 AM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Agroforestry


[2/23, 8:19 AM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Encouraging agroforestry systems where trees and shrubs are integrated into pastureland can enhance diversity


[2/23, 8:28 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Also look up perma culture


[2/23, 10:02 AM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Hazda tribe


[2/23, 10:03 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Even ancient Rishi ecosystems


[2/23, 10:03 AM] Metapsychist Number 1 Kims 2015: Food for thought!


In healthcare 2.0 group :

[2/22, 9:21 PM] Someone : Idli among top 25 dishes causing most damage to biodiversity, say scientists http://www.telegraphindia.com/culture/food/idli-among-top-25-dishes-causing-most-damage-to-biodiversity-say-scientists/cid/2002074



[2/24, 10:35 AM] SBB: Another fake narrative being promoted. The Telegraph. Kolkata publication. Another “leftist” newspaper. I rest my case m’lud…



[2/24, 11:12 AM] K S : This is not about idly but rice used in idly.  Rice and MSP to Rice have become huge impediment to biodiversity like millets and other lesser used products. Another impact is water flooding due to construction of dams to grow rice which is causing irreparable damage to other ecosystems


[2/24, 11:16 AM] SBB: So rice is a problem now. What’s the answer then?


[2/24, 11:17 AM] SBG : This study deserves the Ig Noble


[2/24, 3:03 PM] K S : Consumers should Just add a millet along with rice. Reduce demand for rice. And change MSP for rice or give MSP for millets equal to rice


[2/24, 3:42 PM] I G : I have been making idli/dosa/paniyaram without rice for many years now.
For idlis we use a mixture of bajra rava, jowar rava, corn rava and kodo millet, in any proportion. We have a mixture of at least two of these. This mix is added to soaked and ground urad dal. 
We use the same batter for paniyaram, with added grated or finely chopped veggies, generally grated carrots and chopped onions, green chillies and coriander leaves.
For dosa we use a mix of jowar, bajra and ragi flour which is added to soaked and ground urad dal.


[2/24, 3:57 PM] RcV : We stopped eating breakfast for the last  6 years. Idli is a delicacy made once in a while..once in fortnight. 🤣.


[2/24, 4:01 PM] I G : We still do have breakfast as I don't step out of the house on an empty stomach.

I think I  will treat myself to rice idlis sometime.


[2/24, 4:42 PM] RNG : I have switched to multi grain millet khichdi for dinner and multi grain roti and a Lil brown rice  for lunch. Feels very nice


[2/24, 5:52 PM] SBB: I’m not convinced. I like my rice as it is. If I have to change, I prefer not to eat it.


[2/24, 5:57 PM] K S : That is your right.But the MSP and the ever increasing paddy fields are destroying biodiversity.  Atleast provide MSP for other crops to maintain biodiversity of food


[2/24, 6:25 PM] SBB: This’s getting political. The farming community already gets all sorts of subsidies (fertilisers, electricity, water) and pay no income taxes. My opinion is that they should sell it in the market anywhere in the country that gives them the best price. MSP is another subsidy. What’s next? Increase taxes to double or treble the current rates? Best option. Let the non-farming BPL folks starve to death. Egad! 🤦‍♂️


[2/24, 6:29 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Very interesting turn of events moving the impact of this paper into different directions like wild fire!


[2/24, 6:32 PM] SBB: What else did you expect from an article in a leftist newspaper from dear old West Bengal? Derision?


[2/24, 6:56 PM] D A : As a non expert, my question - everything prices of onions or tomatoes or potatoes go up, govt intervenes to bring them down because they can cause fall of govts - it doesn't do so when airlines have jacked up fares post covid or hotels have increased tariffs post covid or when hospitals loot. So farmers can't make money in demand and supply situation.


[2/24, 7:16 PM] RN G: Farmers don't. Middle men do. The Essential Commodities Act was brought in to stop hoarding which was rampant in early 50's. Doing away with this act would enable the well oiled to control prices Willy nilly. Happens now too. It's a big lobby controlling each segment. My farming experience brings out the fragility of the poor eco system. Even today, major subsidies don't reach the marginalized farmers



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